2h Tank guard

[Ysaran]

problem ?
or just meta change.
devs talked about too many 2h tanks in small scale, iirc.
99.9% i guess ?

I would be fine with this change if tank's gears, tactics, skills and mastery tree were adapted to fit this new kind of game style. But reality is that that didn't happened. Beside BG (and SM, maybe?) there are no others tanks that can increase their disrupt with a tactic. there are no tactics that proc on dodge and very few proc on disrupt, while most proc on parry. I mean what kind of defense has an IB against ranged? a shitty 900 damage absorb with CD? Tanks are not designed to have guard mitigated by all three avoidences

meta change means less effective 2h defensive tank in small scale. in my view.
if purpose was actually meta change, why would they change gears, tactics, skills and mastery tree to negate their purpose.
they wanna give defensive role to snb i think. HtL buffs etc.
punt game is boring, it's been 10 years. maybe it's time to move and adapt new things.
but i guess they already choose quit over adapt.

That's not meta change, it's bs. Burning the pie isn't experimental cooking. It being bad at cooking.
Punt as has a use even outside punt game.
Also, what's the point of your "meta change"? Less effective 2h tank in small-scale, no place for 2h tank in big-scale. To me it doesn't seems a meta change, but rather a try to kill 2h tank. Where is their place now?

[Ysaran]

If you read what I wrote, I was saying 2h tanks were harder to kill, and in many cases tankier than snb tanks. The change is better now.

Who would you rather hit....a 2h tank, a snb tank, or better targets such as the dps and healers? lol

They never were harder to kill than the snb tanks.
Obviously but dps or heales are not part of this discussion.

They were...a 2h tank should not survive the guard damage better or equal to a snb tank because easy capabilities to have 70-100% parry. I can explain how guard damage worked if you like.

Yes please, explain here. To everyone

[Targhor]

Unfortunately, your assertions are false. Good 2h tank players dish probably half, if not 1/3, of the damage of a good dps player. They bring crowdcontrol but they lack for anything else; the problem is that a true tank provide crowdcontrol and much more, becoming the obvious favorable choice in any case.
Boiling down to simple numbers, the scenario is something like that:
1h snb tank hits for 100
2h tank hits for 400.
Dps hits for 1500.
Smart WB builders will never take 2h tank looking at the +300dmg w.r.t. 1h tank, because this comes to the expense of no guard at all(like someone proposes) or at guard dmg quickly chewing through the 2h tank; they will take 1h tank because they can properly guard their dps, they survive even while guarding, and they provide all the tank goodness needed. The WB will not miss the slightly more dps of a tank, because dps is provided by...dps characters.
This reflects the current situation from destro side: on any serious city siege WB you will find ONE 2h BG for the nice aoe crit chance, and that is. Try to ask for group as 2h chosen/BO and they will correctly laugh on your face.

What was originally the point of being a 2h tank then? was a nice tradeoff between survability and damage. But in the current system you trade off too much survability for gaining so small advantages.

wellwell... coming up with random sentences/numbers as facts is not a level i like to debate on.
good 2h tanks do 250-300k in an average sc with plenty fighting going on; -that being your proposed 33-50% of good dps players would mean that "real" mdps-classes deal 335-450k. while i have seen those numbers a few times (410k for 2h tank, 470k for choppa being my personally witnessed maximums), thats far from an average scoreboard in scs.
if you dont see the value for groupcompositions in 2h tanks bringing good damage, good survivability, good crowdcontrol and their respective speciality (auras, bellows/blade enchantments or dark protector/oath friend -buffs) into the toolbox, then we simply have different understandings. i still consider your point false, your tromboned "obvious choice" false and your assumptions onesided.

and i still would happily have guard being a shield only-skill.

[detrap]

They never were harder to kill than the snb tanks.
Obviously but dps or heales are not part of this discussion.

They were...a 2h tank should not survive the guard damage better or equal to a snb tank because easy capabilities to have 70-100% parry. I can explain how guard damage worked if you like.

Yes please, explain here. To everyone

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

[Sponn]

Can you elaborate a little more I don't think I quite understand it, I just came back to RoR a few days ago and my character has seemed squishier and I was wondering why.

On live (and on RoR, until few month ago) all the guard damage was avoided by using parry. Now, you use parry to avoid melee damage, dodge for physical ranged and disrupt for magical ranged. Also, now all guard damages benefit from the avoidence strikethrough (from gear/skills, not from stat) that the damage dealer has.

Holy **** really? That is ****' wack. I thought all guard dmg was counted as physical from the front so it was only mitigated by Block/parry.

WTF

[Nekkma]

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

You do know there is nothing preventing a snb tank to parry guard damage and that more than half the tank classes have parry buffs connected to block or block stat?

[detrap]

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

You do know there is nothing preventing a snb tank to parry guard damage and that more than half the tank classes have parry buffs connected to block or block stat?

Yes the benefit having a shield was that blocking is a separate defensive check to parry/dodge/disrupt. However Being snb limits you to less dps no access to 2h abilities and extra strikethrough. Before the guard changes a 2h tank could have access to all of these, be more damage orientated and suffer no penalty in regards to survivability because having 70%-100% parry was just as good or better than having 35% block and parry.

[nocturnalguest]

@detrap learn some basics of probability theory. 1 roll of 75% < 2 rolls of 50% and 65% (you use buffed parry value but unbuffed block/parry to fit your "argument"?)
also you overestimate parry level on properly geared 2h tanks way too much. with bloodlord it become possible to casually reach the cap with buffs (75%). average unbuffed level is (and was) around 40-50%. in proper environment you would also get at least 10% of that debuffed (or 50%) with armor stripped on top.
snb tanks without any problems reach unbuffed 40% block on invader level with rr spent.
in no wonderland 2h tanks had more survivebility than snb.

[Rapzel]

If you read what I wrote, I was saying 2h tanks were harder to kill, and in many cases tankier than snb tanks. The change is better now.

Who would you rather hit....a 2h tank, a snb tank, or better targets such as the dps and healers? lol

They never were harder to kill than the snb tanks.
Obviously but dps or heales are not part of this discussion.

They were...a 2h tank should not survive the guard damage better or equal to a snb tank because easy capabilities to have 70-100% parry. I can explain how guard damage worked if you like.

Block = % based EHP multiplier.
Parry = % based EHP against melee multiplier.

Your math skills are terrible if you think a SnB tank is "less tanky" than a 2h tank, or you haven't managed to figure out the fact that SnB tanks get block from the Block Value (422 is 34%ish block IRCC) on the shield and try to compare the +block with +parry. It's not difficult to reach the 75% block cap and adding up 75% parry after that yields a total of 93.75% to block or parry (yes block is rolled before secondary defenses) a melee attack compared to "75%" on a 2h.
This is not even taking into consideration that there's 3 different types of "normal" attacks out of which all block works against, given the tank gets hit.

Are you one of those NA tanks that HTL against melee blobs and complains about how GTDC interrupts your HTL?

[Ysaran]

They were...a 2h tank should not survive the guard damage better or equal to a snb tank because easy capabilities to have 70-100% parry. I can explain how guard damage worked if you like.

Yes please, explain here. To everyone

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

Well, that's just wrong. Any 2h tank that didn't stack up dodge/disrupt would have just melted in any outnumbered fight. Speccing only for parry was never an option. The only difference between 2h tanks and SnB tanks are the 20rp SnB have to spand in block and the fact that for 2h, mixing gear is better. HTL was designed exatcly to give this advantage to SnB, because it was impossible to give decent stas and all three avoidences on gear.

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

You do know there is nothing preventing a snb tank to parry guard damage and that more than half the tank classes have parry buffs connected to block or block stat?

Yes the benefit having a shield was that blocking is a separate defensive check to parry/dodge/disrupt. However Being snb limits you to less dps no access to 2h abilities and extra strikethrough. Before the guard changes a 2h tank could have access to all of these, be more damage orientated and suffer no penalty in regards to survivability because having 70%-100% parry was just as good or better than having 35% block and parry.

Again, you are wrong. How much parry do you have to stack to avoid melting against BW/SW/Engie/dps AM? I'm not talking about guard damage, but direct hit. Block help you mitigate ranged damage. Having block and parry make you more difficult to kill. If they really wanted make SnB tank more appealing, they would have just to make punt usable with shield and give to tank a valuable reason to spec for SnB. Instead they killed 2h tanks.
Think about it: the skills that require you to have 2h now can't be used, becuse if yoy are SnB you can't use it and if you are 2h you melt if you spec for it. There are whole mastery tree that now are useless outside of SC.

P.S. Avoidences are capped at 75%, if you see more than 75% you are clearly high