BUFF the BG already

[Panzerkasper]

FtWK is borderline useless I would say.
Maybe it has it's place in wb play, but who cares about that. Its basically just throwing aoe at each other after all.

In everything 6man and smaller you want a 2h BG and there you don't have the option to spec for it, because you want a KD and the aoe snare + parry tactic are way too good to leave it out.
I'd rather have Bolstering Anger back on Anguish 13pts tbh.

Something I would have done a long time ago was change the values of the armor debuffs:
1600 for BG/IB
1200 for WL/WP/Mara/DoK

[Wdova]

FtWK is borderline useless I would say.
Maybe it has it's place in wb play, but who cares about that. Its basically just throwing aoe at each other after all.

In everything 6man and smaller you want a 2h BG and there you don't have the option to spec for it, because you want a KD and the aoe snare + parry tactic are way too good to leave it out.
I'd rather have Bolstering Anger back on Anguish 13pts tbh.

Something I would have done a long time ago was change the values of the armor debuffs:
1600 for BG/IB
1200 for WL/WP/Mara/DoK

The highest ones and undefendable were given to WP/DoK. I mean. I don´t know what balance team is on, but I want it too.

[nocturnalguest]

Check balance proposals. I did long explanation why.

You mean your wishlists? If those are "explanations" then, yeah, ive seen those threads
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... 83#p589983
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... 92#p589992
It contains no analyzes of any kind, no data and you dont count in variety of compositions, environments of game modes. You also stay silent in terms of how your wishes will affect gameplay on different levels. So my question "why BG need buffs" still stands, nothing in your wishlist shreds a light into this blind (imo) spot.

I would not bother with Nocturnal he just trolling. Everbody know's BG need more buff for single target dmg abilities and they dont bring the quality buff like IB gives. Sure people play because it's a fun class to play but Chosen/BO require less skill and bring more to the table.

Yeah, but to an extent. Everybody knows is no argument. Im plain serious about channel tho, its incredibly dull to propose such change, especially assuming how process of balancing here goes. Also no DPS buff will come without a cost, be careful what you wish for.

This.
There are people who usually oppose any suggestion of changes by default and they convince themselves that they do it based on logic and experience and common sense. It's easy, one can find arguments for anything. Nocturnal appears to me to fall in that category. His incongruous mixture of seemingly peaceful and sensible reasoning with sudden aggressive know-it-all sarcasm is quite unique though.

I dont oppose any suggestion of changes, i oppose those that were mentioned here in general and a channel in particular. As for the last part, i just happen to be triggered by something and if it aligns with spare time i have - i type. Also im not seemingly peaceful, i usually just adapt to a tone of whoever im talking to. Also if conversation is full of well-thought out analyse, data, considers many factors i will always keep it respectful, civil, aknowledge my mistakes etc. But, yeah, its gonna be a bit different if person just randomly mash buttons on keyboard not putting a glimpse of effort to think before posting.

So now into details a little bit. But at first

5 pages debate over a small little buff (which is well deserved). Christ just give BG a dps buff to the channel since it was clearly overnerfed and hits like a wet noodle now.

It's just like the KOTBS discussion, people were arguing that a KOTBS dps buff would be a huge thin, then devs buffed Myrmidas fury more than we asked for and it proved to be completely within balance, not a problem at all.

The drama of this forum!

P.S. hopefully the 2H IB will be looked at as well, it sucks.(not channel, generally) .

Yes, i remember that discussion very clearly, mine and your points. Was a good one. It got armor penetration, but what in reality happened at competetive level is that kotbs got group armor buff, what we pinpoint back then as a biggest problem (being a hostage of 1 spec) still stands pretty much. You will not afford it anyhow, only possible if you do 6v6 and build around destroy confidence and got another KD on DPS. Kotbs change opened up possibility for people to clip fancy-schmancy solo adventures, yes. Everyone happy now? Cool if so, but i feel no relief yet. Where will you go with that channel? Pugging SCs, topping scoreboards? Was that what i said back then? See what happened now? (killboard is buggy for me atm, ill add or post later tons of useless DPS kotbs topping scoreboards literally throwing matches for their teams with a score of 0 kills - 20+ for enemy team) I wish to believe i dont have to explain this exact part, but if its unclear dont hesistate to quote me back.
And like i said back then, all this was already possible to an extent. Due to potions stack now any tank can even further reliably go fully offensive and dish out "numbers". Hugest buff kotbs/chosen got is on demand absorb with insane value, so now they are a bit more tough if build as glass (why even do that, very weird reasons i note). Did it gain actual kill power after all this changes? No.

And yes, this applies into BG as well, it can also go very offensive gearwise, still take parry tactic, and also dish out numbers. Wont match biggest fluffers (kotbs/chosen), but gonna be very close. Why do that? No reasons.

This strong will to smash things with big 2h stick is not beyond me tho, but to make it somewhat balanced we need way more efforts put into game mechanics and prolly better to do it dividing roles more strictly, e.g. no guard/challenge for DPS. Same in ideal world should be done with healers. Other options blur things way too much, there will still be options to tank and fluff 1,1-2 million of dmg in proper city. I strongly believe we need less of such "cases" (defWE ) not more.

I'd like to see BG buffed to lean more heavily into its niche of being the best debuff/cc tank rather than the generic route of more damage. Changing its requirements to have to spec high crit to make its abilities work would be a start. Especially since RoR has 1000 ways to reduce crit and crit damage compared to gaining crit and Knight can do the same debuffs without requiring it.

And this exact thought i share either. As i previously also mentioned (and Sever1n mentioned it too in his topics), the biggest issue at the moment is that for BG everything worthy is tied into crit. Current balance circle with lots of ini, abilities rework has made it totally unviable and something has to be done. inb4 BG could gear and run pretty offensively, reaching ~850 str in their most balanced specs, be tanky af and shine.

Its not the channel that is an issue, channel was all in one ability used to actively pump, it had absolutely insane scalers comparable with 13 point mastery channels being at 5 (summoning Sinisterror for an old webacrhive career builder but for the general referance, i truly dont recall what patch it was, but likely current 1.4.8 https://builder.null/career/black-guard oh, and also, @Sever1n as you didnt understand what i refer to, take a look here how BG was design "originally"), which was simply an "overlook" when Torque remade the class (his main class may i note), because he couldnt win duels in gud ol' days. So 5pt mastery channel nerf is very justified in reality, it fixed an abomination Torque made.

Maybe indeed, a bit of mirroring would help, with some additional hate tied buff into ini/ws, as Florian mentioned. Or all at once, untie HD of crit (kotbs mirror), put st WS self/DP buff into PS and add ini into ET. Could be a nice start imo. If channel to be changed, then it needs a nerf into amount of hits as the very minimum, so no more then 5 hits.

But BGs damage is not an issue of a class. It, like any other tank already have options to fluff scoreboards if one wish so. Making changes so BG will fluff easier and better is literally a waste of devs/balance team time.

P.S. Before we further go into channel discussion if anyone wish to do so, be sure to be confident with data of all 6 of them at least on ability viewer levels.

[Sever1n]

My "wishlists" as u try to sell them, are just feedback from playing BG that everyday see problems of class trough experience, and posible solutions for them. I tried to make them short and based on logic and observation (wich is still fundamental method) to show place of bg and his kit ingame, so devs understand problems from BG POV. Brevity is the soul of wit and stuff

P.S No one will go deep math analysis of any possible changes in all game situations just becouse u demand it to prove obvious things (and i belive u demand them just to make your oponents look stupid in discussion, so u get final word). U failed to answer simpliest questions we asked to prove your point, and started boring verbal gymnastics. But yeh u are welcome do all that math u talk about BGs survival/buffs/debuffs/stats/dps in solo/6/24 situations to prove us wrong and show that BG now shine as no tank ingame. I will applaud to your dedication for class then, cos such things would be indeed hard to measure and count in all aspects (like fairness of punt angle lvl, hate generation, value of every buff and debuff, etc) in full.

[M0rw47h]

What do they debuff that's so great? Because Chosen debuff toughness, resists, strength, etc. to all targets in range, passively. Oh, and wounds.

any weapon:
Wave of Scorn (AoE slow)
Crush the Weak (- crit chance)
Furious Howl (-10% block and parry)
Mind Killer with Soul Killer (-main stat, -50% outgoing heal)

2h:
Crimson Death (+10% chance to be crit);
Hastened Doom (wounds debuff passively).

CtW and Mind Killer are really potent, but they are smallscale stuff due to being ST.
If I would want to buff BG, I'd ask for tactics to make Crush the Weak and Choking Fury AoE.

Horrific wound?

This as well... BG is the best assist tank in the game in terms of debuffing target.

[Sever1n]

BG is the best assist tank in the game in terms of debuffing target.

Are you 100% sure about that?

[Florian90210]

This as well... BG is the best assist tank in the game in terms of debuffing target.

That's funny.
Kotbs approach and you and everybody around immediately lose resists, toughness, str, wounds etc
BG will dance around before applying his few buffs-debuffs.

[M0rw47h]

BG is the best assist tank in the game in terms of debuffing target.

Are you 100% sure about that?

Yes, but I guess main concern is: Marauder already has better armor and wounds debuff on low CD, so why bother?

This as well... BG is the best assist tank in the game in terms of debuffing target.

That's funny.
Kotbs approach and you and everybody around immediately lose resists, toughness, str, wounds etc
BG will dance around before applying his few buffs-debuffs.

Knight same as Chosen is better AoE debuffer, not ST assist debuffer.
Also Knight/Chosen and BG/IB have completly different skillcap...

[Sever1n]

Yes, but I guess main concern is: Marauder already has better armor and wounds debuff on low CD, so why bother?

Main concern is, most of hes debuffs very common and have ton of substitutes. Tough - trirings/sham/cho, slow - chopas/selerity, woundcutter - chosen that dint need crappy mech, armshred bork,sh,mara, etc. Other debuffs he have ib mimics while having huge buff potential for his oatfriend. Only things BG bring really is crimson death and furios howl, second one is not wery efective in our casinoresist meta and most of times go into block/parry by tanks it suppose to debuff.

On paper he looks like debuffer, on practice only thing hes really bring - crimson death. Compare that to utility of other tanks, u will see bg dont give anything special at exept ww/cd. https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... hp?t=60146 mentioned it in my explanation of "wishlist". Just check how nature blade work or warbellows, those tanks drain whole stats spectrum in aoe just from 1 enchant passively ataking in adition to other debufs they bring.

So while BG looks like debuffer on paper he prob worst one among tanks. Hes main str now in 5 sec stun, uniq punt, and optionaly crit debuff or for the witch king.

[Zelix]

Main concern is, most of hes debuffs very common and have ton of substitutes.

Not only that but the debuffs in pretty much any practical situation do almost nothing, they do not make enough of a difference in combat to warrant their existence in most cases. If the debuffs were 2x or more their potency and also aoe maybe they would be useful but even then they would only be negating buffs down to normal stats and some of those buffs it could negate are so small they aren't useful either to the person you're debuffing. With the exception of the heal debuff. There is a glaring design flaw here.