New Shammy Changes

[Jaycub]

>Something to consider might be doubling the effect of Law of Age and You'z Squishy, moving them to 13pts Vaul/Da Green and moving every other ability in there down a slot.

Would be a huge buff to hybrid, and make it easier to spec AoE lifetap as a healer. 240? AoE toughness debuff would be really strong, more of a buff to AM than shaman tho, as the shaman Cone ele debuff really needs to be 65ft, and they already have access to a 240 toughness debuff via the tactic in the middle tree (though I suspect it's not speced for outside of dps shaman).

Change it to something like a single target outgoing ranged healdebuff, reduced armor pen%, or like disorient/AA haste reduction and whoa mama :^)

Even still 240 toughness debuff is huge, as a hybrid you would choose between that and puddle. As a healer you would choose between that and 13pt abilities? I know DPS isn't exactly important atm but this will also kill the viability (if there even was before) of the DPS tree 13 point abilities.

[Bozzax]

Nod I find myself utterly gutted by how missdirected the fixes to group healing sham is.

I'm sorry, but I'm looking for something a little more involved than making Gather Round a moving cast. I was amazed that you proposed that, as group healing on the move is about WP/DoK tier of easy mode.

Matter of opinion, you are making a new class. I would've settled for group heals on the move or some group hots/procs on the heal tree. That is what really kept the sham out of team play. Oh and BW rotations + DC ofc. AP is no issue at all even in current gear (don't even use RB).

The ex fixes in place made shamans stronger as whole not targeting the parts that were missing. The complex match and mix healing style you are after will be very vuln. to CC and los issues and ofc demand more of the player.

Is simpler better? maybe not but you will be working very hard not to make solo AM/Shamms way to op which they already were bf changes and heal shammies still being inferior to "pure" healers.

Nevertheless you call the shots ofc

[Miszczu5647]

Definitely big step in right direction. I play a lot on my shammy, testing new changes. Speced still like I described on page 7.
So does lifetap/healing shaman could replace delete or DoK? No, he can't. But IMO this is not a shaman problem. More it's a problem that others healer are to strong (I need to play almost perfect to achieve what they achieve easily). So maybe leave shaman for now and let's look on other healers?

Ok, back to topic.
From my experience there are two situation:
1. We push order. Then it is easy too build your dps stacks. If situation is going to change u have very fast Gather Around (and probably Focused Mind).
2. We are pushed by order. Before the clash I am able to build my heal stacks (your basic hot and even 1s heal on the move). So when pressured Fury of the Green could benefit from mew mechanics. And in this situation there are always some targets for Fury and ITT. Numbers I saw are similar to what Jaycob said (during test on pve I saw even 4.2k from Fury).
In both situations we have access to group heal. Rather strong IMO. In second -all during move. Great improvement for shaman.
I agree with Jaycub and Nekkma -problems they identify I also meet during my test. Let them exist for now. They will give us more feedback.
Besides -who want to play easy mode?

[navis]

Formerly, a Shammy could do a full damage rotation and have Heal Waaagh built to 5 which would allow for an insta-cast of Group Heal or Bigger, Better. Can't now. This is a BIG negative.

Once a heal Waaagh is built up 5 times from a common damage rotation, you can't eliminate it quickly and start a build on the other side. You have to cast 9 heals in a row to rebuild your Damage Waagh.

Pretty much what I also think so far.. If anything I'd prefer to get more easily to the opposite empowerment or just get a lucky chance to build to maximum from only 1 or 2 builds. Keeping the 'expulsion' of the ability - thus undoing the channeling changes for eg. Group heal and all the others.

I should just clarify, as even internally some people have misunderstood the intent - I don't want the playstyle to force continued alternation. The idea for heal AM/Shaman was for the class to play conventionally.

I think it should but but with less moves, or maybe some ability have a reduce chance to cost mechanic points.

[Nekkma]

Yep, good points.

I should just clarify, as even internally some people have misunderstood the intent - I don't want the playstyle to force continued alternation. The idea for heal AM/Shaman was for the class to play conventionally, with 5 heal stacks stored for conversion to move heals if and when required - this combining with the AoE tactic to target the complaint about lack of move healing when pressured. It wasn't to make the class absolutely reliant on having to alternate 1-0 to 0-1 - and if the payoff is still too low compared to the risk when it comes to using the lifetaps, in all cases, then I need to look even further at this. I might be continually underestimating the risk and overestimating the impact.

FM BBG spam will indeed likely outperform BBG/I'TT! alternation or raw I'TT! spam if no heal debuffs are in play. If heal debuffs are in play, each I'TT heal outperforms BBG by a factor of 2. Again, if heal debuff ignorance is not considered to be worth anything, I would rather change the typing from raw to standard and have them crit.

If tanks are still blocking or disrupting, even with the 20% strikethrough bonus, then it will have to increase to 50% or just be completely undefendable. Any damage done is fluff, it's not intended to do anything but satisfy some kind of logic for where the tapped health comes from.

Speccing for FodG is indeed costly spec-wise, and with the 80ft range that Jaycub highlighted (which I would dearly love to change, my god), it might be too much. The problem I have is that I want to move FodG down so that DSU can be used with FodG, but I don't know where the silence would go if I did that.

Yeah, it seems we just meant different thing with playing the mechanic then.

I do not understand how you come up with the numbers that ITT outperforms BBG during FM by a factor of 2 if a healdebuff is present. Taking my AM as example, Boon of Hysh heals for 1486 with crits above 2k for 23 ap (with wild healing up). This seems to make both options fairly close in output in the situations of healdebuffs. I kind of like the idea that you can use lifetaps if you fail, or can't, cleanse a healdebuff. I unloaded all my five healing points a few times yesterday on a healdebuffed target with good result. As I was running the new tactic it drained my ap which is something to consider. I still thinik that cleansing it is a priority as other healers benefit from that as well. One thing to consider here is that shaman/am already is the most difficult healer to perform good in a group on. Maximizing the output of healing using lifetaps increase the skill required on the classes.

Regarding block and disrupt, I really only noticed it against SnB tank (presumably defensive). On all other targets I faced very few disrupts. I do not think it should be undefendable as it should be possible to use disrupt skills to counter the lifetap. Perhaps it should not be passivly defendable. I will test some more today and pay specific attention to disrupts and blocks.

Edit: Regarding raw heal vs standard, would a crit from a lifetap trigger RB? if so, then it could help shamans with their ap issue. It could also help AMs wanting to get Energy of vaul as that means dropping wild healing.

[Azarael]

The rules for a raw heal are as follows:

+ Ignores heal debuffs including Divine Fury

- Ignores heal bless effects (RP/Z bless, Desperation / Ain't Done Yet!)
- Cannot critically hit
- Will not trigger any onHeal or onDirectHeal effects such as Wild Healing or Restorative Burst

I've changed the typing to standard heal for the next update.

[Qwack]

Aza: "I might be continually underestimating the risk and overestimating the impact."

In practice the risk is underestimated due to disrupts, blocks and absorbs but the impact is not overestimated. When you have to SAVE someone, you can't afford a no show on even one heal. When the new lifetaps do go off, the heal is substantial. A 50% strikethrough would reduce the risk and should make it acceptable. A player will just need to reach for other targets beyond the SnB tank when there is a crisis. I mean come on, as a tank player, do I really want to be a battery for the opposition? Naw. Fully undefended would be excessive.

I hope to see Lifetaps remain damage oriented without being changed to a heal mechanic. This makes them unique and adds more flavor to the class.

With regard to stack problems, I want to bring up Jaycub's suggestion again of allowing 5 stacks to be handled in the old method. That is, 1-4 Waaagh will behave as under the new, but taking a stack to 5 will cause it to clear out if an opposite is hit as the old. This allows the old method of Instas to still be around and will forego needing any kind of item or ability to swap stacks out. Now we get the best of both worlds. The waaagh management is much more tedious now, this suggestion would help reel it back in. You can still tediously manage waaagh back n forth to maximize your damage/cast time OR just run it all up to 5 and pop out like the old.

Removing the 20% self-heal debuff on HoTs is essential and I hope it remains like this.

All in all these changes are heading in the right direction and I find myself playing the Shammy more than I have all year. Its interesting.

[Azarael]

The reason I'm not implementing 5 stack instant is because there's no control. I would go so far as to say in 90% of situations I've played in so far, I have wanted to use 5 stacks one by one. What I do not want is to be forced to blow those 5 stacks on an instant when I don't want to. If there's any kind of stack shifting mechanic, it will be one that can be controlled.

[Jaycub]

^Having more time to play, that suggestion specifically the part where it takes you from 5 to 1 on the other side has to be dealt with or it's a nerf to the current experimental mechanic. For instance the healing in DPS spec when you have 5 stacks up is really good, but if I am only gonna get 1 group heal at 5 stacks compared to 5 from before that's just bad. Same for heal spec, if I have time to do damage or 5 on the move life taps compared to 1. That's in now way compensated for having an insta cast



I've been running this spec on AM for ~5? days now

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=am; ... 8:;0:0:0:0:

Last tactic is 160 willpower or divine fury depending on our healing situation.


The healing is almost on par with heal spec AM in absolute perfect situations, and in certain situations it outperforms every healer. The problem is, lifetaps just arent reliable enough for this to be anything but a **** playstyle.

When energy of vaul is working it's absolutely amazing healing, pretty much OP. But that's just it... you have to have heal stacks up for it to do work, you have to be 80ft from your target, and they have to be bunched up. You also can't really deal well with pressure, you have to face your enemy to heal it's harder to kite and stay alive / keep your team alive. I would never spend 13 points for this in a serious spec, puddle in hybrid or funnel essence/wild healing in heal spec is just plain better. if it was 9pts I'd grab it in every build no questions asked though.

Balance essence is in a great spot though, I wouldn't change anything and you have options with the tactic to increase it''s effectiveness.

General playstyle is to run out 1st build up some quick dmg stacks, through out some HoTs at the start of the fight and dance between 1-1 stacks alternating between BE and group heal, boon/HoT when necessary, and EoV whenever the stars align and it's going to be stronger than BE. You're gonna need a lot of AP gear to pull this off BTW, sitting at ~10 APS from gear? It's fun tho.

Being pressured is a major problem as a lifetap style healer, you are up closer and as soon as you get more than 1 person on you, your healer goes down the shitter compared to a traditional healer.

[Qwack]

The reason I'm not implementing 5 stack instant is because there's no control. I would go so far as to say in 90% of situations I've played in so far, I have wanted to use 5 stacks one by one. What I do not want is to be forced to blow those 5 stacks on an instant when I don't want to. If there's any kind of stack shifting mechanic, it will be one that can be controlled.

The "control" in Jaycub's suggestion is to "control as you go" like at 3 or 4. Manage it upto 4. So as a DPSer I would not use 5 heals in a row to get my damage stack to 5 and blow it on one damage. If I needed 5 heals I could just do 4 heals and a Lifetap or 2 heals, Lifetap, 2 heals. This keeps your stack at 4 max. Im finding as a DPSer that I just don't need a 5 heal stack after doing damage rotations and Lifetaps too. And its the Lifetaps that burn through my damage stack all too often. Thus I get stuck with a 5 heal stack way too often that I can't pop out of in group situations.

In order to not start a heal stack climb as a DPSer, I have to cast like 3-4 heals first. Many times those heals are totally unnecessary and blow a chance at assisting to kill. In a group, when the caller has a target and "calls" it down, you have to assist right then. I badly need a stack wipe out option in group assisting. The 5-stack insta and wipe really fits group assisting well.

As a Soloer or duo I can do whatever I want and I am finding that a 2,2 cadence of 2 heals, then 2 damage on target (sometimes 3,3) is working well. That don't float in full groups though.

For me, the 5 stack heal waaagh is the real fly in the ointment. All else is working fine now (assuming a 50% strikethrough is forthcoming for Taps), that one thing is hogtieing the entire effort. Aza, if you do decide to go with a stack swap ability, 60 seconds needs to be the limit, but I think its more elegant and better rewards Waaagh management to allow the old 5 stack insta and drop. This means if someone wants to play like a freaking Octopus (which I don't mind), they get more out of it. But if someone is just casually playing the class, they can still do well with just 5 stack run ups and pop outs.