WE/WH: What really went wrong

[Sinisterror]

I always looked in stagger as disabling tool, u stagger one heal and then fly into other for burst. It can make big impact. Prob its undefendable part was done for that purposes.

It was both offensive & defensive purposes. All skills like these that do no dmg used to be undefendable, like magi/engi stagger and sw/sh self punt ae slow and ofc wh/we stagger. 20s cooldown makes sense or at least used to make sense when Kd's were 2 seconds and the game was faster paced. Stagger cooldown first was 10s so effectively 4s so free time to go stealth before enemy can react and then KD target : D that was a bit too much so they increased it to 20s

[Pahakukka]

I always looked in stagger as disabling tool, u stagger one heal and then fly into other for burst. It can make big impact. Prob its undefendable part was done for that purposes.

It was both offensive & defensive purposes. All skills like these that do no dmg used to be undefendable, like magi/engi stagger and sw/sh self punt ae slow and ofc wh/we stagger. 20s cooldown makes sense or at least used to make sense when Kd's were 2 seconds and the game was faster paced. Stagger cooldown first was 10s so effectively 4s so free time to go stealth before enemy can react and then KD target : D that was a bit too much so they increased it to 20s

It might be the change of pace in game that has made it a bit stronger. KD is mostly 2seconds again tho. Just long enough for single ability.

[Farrul]

the absorb is only super annoying when figting DEF WE with reasonable mitigation on on crit dmg and dmg in general. they get critted a lot and with high mitigation they soak up big chunk of the dmg, but As said, high enough base dmg, like WS based slayer can go thro the absorb, if lucky and not rolling crits too often. With no FS its not ppossible completely avoid them tho.

Altough It's not really how we feel about this tactic, but simple numbers that imbalances it.

600 absorb/3 is NOT balanced with anything else like it, when we consider WE to be a melee dps archetype and not a melee Tank archetype it gets worse. The closest would be SM Vauls Buffer tactic reaching 600 absorb with a full tree investment( otherwise 500 ) but that is a tank class and the tactic is in the 9th spot in the SnB tank tree. This is a tactic not requiring any point in the tree, top performance. *Balance*.

The only caveat would be that it procs on Crit, but then again that is 100% guarantee proc compared to a 25% chance on the MUCH weaker 375 absorb racial tactic on for example the WH. Also Order classes in general crit a lot, all small hits etc, this tactic will see major uptime regardless most of the time. 600 absorb is an absurd number, it should never had exceeded 450 absorb in a sane balance world, 500 would even had been too much given the zero requirements of this tactic.

The fact that we pointed out this stuff for years, and then finally the december MDPS patch lands and get some more insane WE buffs, nothing done about the old stuff like Sacrifices rewarded, i mean there is a reason why there is 1-2 new threads started each week about this class in particular. It's just an overtuned class at this point when we take everything into account ( stealth, sick tool-kit, magic - ignore armor itemization self-regen etc).

[hordak774]

witch elfes should be nerfed defently, simply easy game 2 buttons class

[Sinisterror]

These are not the issue, they are the result of Nerfing Everything Offensive and this weird form of mirroring RoR does. In AoR, every melee dps ran 2pc offensive df/wf for 12/25% Crit/Crit dmg proc and 2pc defensive for 10% on being hit to have 1200 absorb.

And this was only available for Melee dps(the 1200 absorb part) and i never saw anyone complaining about it. Because the game actually worked and had some actual idea behind the changes and not done just because. This is legit making me insane that RoR has more than enough great suggestions on forums and every single time they change something "drastically" like making wpns so pathetic i dont even want to log on anymore....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ3O1PIt5aU

First 20 seconds this guy shows his gear, check them individual stats on the pieces + the set bonuses and then tell me you would rather have what we have in RoR? And if so WHY? Everyone likes feeling powerful in Games, and blanding everything to a point that 600 absorb on crit "Breaks the game" how far we have fallen:/ And if its not clear, balance obviously was better in AoR than RoR. Hands down, doesnt matter if its rr80 vs rr100 version of Aor - Although rr100 hidden lvl Bs was the most insane power creep there ever was.

if you were rr92(lvl 44) and didnt even have any df vs rr80(lvl 41) in same gear, no matter what classes were involved, those 3 more hidden lvls took care of the fight it was truely that much of a difference. Luckily this lasted maybe 6 months and then finally it was fixed.

[hordak774]

Guard and Grp Heals are designed with 9 aoe cap not 24. So healers definetely aint the problem. Fix GCD back to 1.15s and bring old combat formulas back with 1.4.8 baseline and RoR is Fixed : D

That must be dont a long time ago, game become too slow and not dynamic

[nocturnalguest]

Altough It's not really how we feel about this tactic, but simple numbers that imbalances it.

600 absorb/3 is NOT balanced with anything else like it, when we consider WE to be a melee dps archetype and not a melee Tank archetype it gets worse. The closest would be SM Vauls Buffer tactic reaching 600 absorb with a full tree investment( otherwise 500 ) but that is a tank class and the tactic is in the 9th spot in the SnB tank tree. This is a tactic not requiring any point in the tree, top performance. *Balance*.

The only caveat would be that it procs on Crit, but then again that is 100% guarantee proc compared to a 25% chance on the MUCH weaker 375 absorb racial tactic on for example the WH. Also Order classes in general crit a lot, all small hits etc, this tactic will see major uptime regardless most of the time. 600 absorb is an absurd number, it should never had exceeded 450 absorb in a sane balance world, 500 would even had been too much given the zero requirements of this tactic.

The fact that we pointed out this stuff for years, and then finally the december MDPS patch lands and get some more insane WE buffs, nothing done about the old stuff like Sacrifices rewarded, i mean there is a reason why there is 1-2 new threads started each week about this class in particular. It's just an overtuned class at this point when we take everything into account ( stealth, sick tool-kit, magic - ignore armor itemization self-regen etc).

No doubt SR is absolute outliner. /shrug its not "fixed" like e.g. Heavy Blow which was also a clear outliner. However SR "fix" will be in same category of pointless changes on the altar of unification. Why? SR is completely useless in any kind of group play, if you run it in a group of 3+ people you are doing it wrong.

Its clear they dont focus on solo meta, so all the outcries from solo pov are completely pointless, its just a waste of time to post about this. Literally beating the air.

Could try to argue about pounce but its also threshing over old stew, current design is exactly what they wanted to do. Clear as day that logic was - lets make WE/WH sticky into their targets but we dont like mirrors so need unique flavor, so lets do x2 pounce ("more mobility" is declared design) and add 30ft builder for WH cause pistol (also mentioned in patch notes).

Also if solo "meta" is discarded both classes are completely fine for group play while still suboptimal pick for orvr despite declared will to make them more viable in such game mode.

[hordak774]

https://radikal.host/i/b6SW4Q
No jew tali, no liniments, no buffs from mates.Average. 5 mins ago. 5 times - max burst in 3 seconds 6.9. Min - 4.5. Depend on covenant/fortress weapon procs and crits. Average lower than on my mara or choppa, but not a lot and it's very good result for healer hybrid.Btw if it compare with my dps WP it's a 4-5.5k 3s burst.

Weird, 6.9 is really high for no lini and tali. Can u share rotation and build? Will try to recreate it. I have big portion of damage hard mitigated by armor and tough of doll, and dont see ways to balance stats so dok wont became 7k hp glass. This link doesnt work for me, sadly. Also expected wp to be lot stronger, and your results really contradicting what i expirienced in sc/rvr.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;4;0;0;0
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 2,9588,585
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 912/armory

tell me one thing why dps wp dont have aa speed tactic ?!

[Sinisterror]

Weird, 6.9 is really high for no lini and tali. Can u share rotation and build? Will try to recreate it. I have big portion of damage hard mitigated by armor and tough of doll, and dont see ways to balance stats so dok wont became 7k hp glass. This link doesnt work for me, sadly. Also expected wp to be lot stronger, and your results really contradicting what i expirienced in sc/rvr.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;4;0;0;0
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 2,9588,585
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 912/armory

tell me one thing why dps wp dont have aa speed tactic ?!

Because RoR removed WP AA haste tactic like year ago or so? LOL

[rorswar]

Its clear they dont focus on solo meta, so all the outcries from solo pov are completely pointless, its just a waste of time to post about this. Literally beating the air.

This is such a tired argument.

Look at the population: https://maartenson.net/ror_graph.html

Even at prime time EU, it's only for an hour or two max that the population pops above 400 in T2+ on either side. The rest of the time, it's just low pop and at times even dropping below 100 in T2 for either side. Most organised guilds that regularly field an organised WB on discord left. You got Formosa rocking up twice a week, Unreal forming when Brodda is on, Retribution is a shade of its former glory, LNM quit, etc, etc...

Solo builds wouldn't matter much when the game was at live and fully populated with proper WBs running around most time of the day. Now it's just a PUG fest, with often times not even PUG WBs around, that's why a good proportion of the time the lakes are dominated by solo DPS healers and stealth classes.

The game is now at such a low pop that it should balance solo classes as well, or the game becomes unplayable for a decent chunk of the day.