[WE/WH] shadow

[nat3s]

I already said that i do not have problem with the damage of this skill. It's for you to decide how much you wanna scale it. I've shown examples that you can stack it up to 3.6k, and higher if u really wanted to, but that would not be the def WE you are talking about. From what you have said earlier typical def WE should be dealing around 1.8k WB, without tactic. Put a magic power tali, use offensive pot, get few talis into str instead of tough/armor and with tactic you have 3k. Don't deny that it doesn't exist if you are not playing it. Not everyone is playing your imaginary 1v1 duel scenarios in open rvr.

Well yes, quite, as you say, that wouldn't be a def WE then and I believe you said elsewhere that offensive WE is balanced because they die like a fart in the wind.

Most WE fights are 1v1 (or at least start 1v1 until they get added on), its entirely relevant. Look at Solater, one of the most experienced def WEs, he has over 25k kills, but over 50k deaths! If you tick the solo kills checkbox, this improves to 80% kill 20% deaths, but he's still way lower on kills than deaths overall. Then compare to a WB centric player like Teefz or Bombling who have hugely higher kill vs death K/D ratios and for all kills not just solo kills. Why am I posting that? Because in general play WEs die far more than they kill because you're regularly faced with 1vX situations, its in solo play where they shine. That def WE that you happen to meet whilst in your glass cannon gear running to a WB solo that beats you, carries with them the scares of having had unlucky playsessions where small man, 6man, 12man and WBs have literally farmed them all evening.

Any corner you turn as a WE/WH can be into a group and = death.

That's why they are both balanced to be powerful in 1v1, take that away and you're just left with the most useless class in the game!

[eigner93]

Like i said this post totally derailed in a different direction by biased WEs and we victims. The stealther population have seen a huge rise after the buffs in december. I have never encountered so many stealther before. Because of this, stealther groups are more popular, 6/12 man sometimes even more group up. Like op said this disrupts small scale fights and can cause damage in wb vs wb fights on the backline aswell. Problem is there is no real counter to it other than bring more people or join the blob. And i find it ridiculous that 10 stealther can be around me without me or anyone ever detecting them. I have tested initiative and it didnt make much difference stacking it. I maybe detected them 1,2 times out of 10 with 500 ini. But obviously stacking ini is not what you want to do on any class. There should be an increased chance of detecting them when there is more around or make stealth for 30 sec or buff initiative. Its not game breaking, but its definetely hurting small scale pvp and i think it should be looked at.

[PROsiak]

Well yes, quite, as you say, that wouldn't be a def WE then and I believe you said elsewhere that offensive WE is balanced because they die like a fart in the wind.

Most WE fights are 1v1 (or at least start 1v1 until they get added on), its entirely relevant. Look at Solater, one of the most experienced def WEs, he has over 25k kills, but over 50k deaths! If you tick the solo kills checkbox, this improves to 80% kill 20% deaths, but he's still way lower on kills than deaths overall. Then compare to a WB centric player like Teefz or Bombling who have hugely higher kill vs death K/D ratios and for all kills not just solo kills. Why am I posting that? Because in general play WEs die far more than they kill because you're regularly faced with 1vX situations, its in solo play where they shine. That def WE that you happen to meet whilst in your glass cannon gear running to a WB solo that beats you, carries with them the scares of having had unlucky playsessions where small man, 6man, 12man and WBs have literally farmed them all evening.

Any corner you turn as a WE/WH can be into a group and = death.

That's why they are both balanced to be powerful in 1v1, take that away and you're just left with the most useless class in the game!

This is not something unique to WE, every other class experiences it and every other class has it 10x worse, because they lack stealth and mobility/survivability options the WE provides.
No one talks about killing WE 1v1 potential. WE can have it's place both in solo, small scale and WB's environment, i'm all in on that. But the class is clearly out of it's place. Tell me, do you really think WE without a pounce will be a dead class? How have you been playing before the change was made? Or if SS was balanced around actually requiring weapon skill, would that kill the class?

[nat3s]

Well yes, quite, as you say, that wouldn't be a def WE then and I believe you said elsewhere that offensive WE is balanced because they die like a fart in the wind.

Most WE fights are 1v1 (or at least start 1v1 until they get added on), its entirely relevant. Look at Solater, one of the most experienced def WEs, he has over 25k kills, but over 50k deaths! If you tick the solo kills checkbox, this improves to 80% kill 20% deaths, but he's still way lower on kills than deaths overall. Then compare to a WB centric player like Teefz or Bombling who have hugely higher kill vs death K/D ratios and for all kills not just solo kills. Why am I posting that? Because in general play WEs die far more than they kill because you're regularly faced with 1vX situations, its in solo play where they shine. That def WE that you happen to meet whilst in your glass cannon gear running to a WB solo that beats you, carries with them the scares of having had unlucky playsessions where small man, 6man, 12man and WBs have literally farmed them all evening.

Any corner you turn as a WE/WH can be into a group and = death.

That's why they are both balanced to be powerful in 1v1, take that away and you're just left with the most useless class in the game!

This is not something unique to WE, every other class experiences it and every other class has it 10x worse, because they lack stealth and mobility/survivability options the WE provides.
No one talks about killing WE 1v1 potential. WE can have it's place both in solo, small scale and WB's environment, i'm all in on that. But the class is clearly out of it's place. Tell me, do you really think WE without a pounce will be a dead class? How have you been playing before the change was made? Or if SS was balanced around actually requiring weapon skill, would that kill the class?

Yes and every other class has more group centric tools where WH/WE lack in these areas because they are designed for solo play.

Yes following the removal of the 30 foot range on Ruthless Assault removing Pounce now with no compensation would make WE insanely easy to kill. I'd farm them all day long (I do anyway on my AM / RP / WL even with Pounce).

WH got additional range generator + 25% additional BAL/Abso crit chance, WE got Pounce / Sac Stab. I have both at 80+ and I love them both equally. They are now quite different, WH you range kite with Flowing Accusations, WE you face-tank and try to avoid being kited.

[PROsiak]

Yes and every other class has more group centric tools where WH/WE lack in these areas because they are designed for solo play.

Yes following the removal of the 30 foot range on Ruthless Assault removing Pounce now with no compensation would make WE insanely easy to kill. I'd farm them all day long (I do anyway on my AM / RP / WL even with Pounce).

WH got additional range generator + 25% additional BAL/Abso crit chance, WE got Pounce / Sac Stab. I have both at 80+ and I love them both equally. They are now quite different, WH you range kite with Flowing Accusations, WE you face-tank and try to avoid being kited.

In what areas are WH/WE lacking that prevents them from being good for example in 6man groups? WE has access to both ingoing and outgoing heal debuff, has wounds and other stats debuffs, has snares, knockdown, powerful stagger, antyres, mobility, relics for defence and literally S tier damage that doesn't care what target is she hitting, be it a cloth healer or an armored knight. I won't speak about WB's environment because this is not something i engage with, but i heard at least WH's has some good possibilities now. So your argument makes zero sense. Here on forums i hear all the time, that this is a team game and solo play is only an abomination, which i deeply disagree with, but don't turn it inside out, that some classes are only meant for solo play which is clearly not the case.

As for ruthless assault i don't really know what you are talking about. WE doesn't have access to flowing accusations, she couldn't be played as a short range kiter similar to WH. This skill didn't make any difference in her ability to close the gap or to escape. Maybe in some specific matchups, like versus WH you could use the cooldown once while WH was spamming absos or Trials, but you would be outdamaged and i don't see a point. Care to elaborate further?

[nat3s]

Yes and every other class has more group centric tools where WH/WE lack in these areas because they are designed for solo play.

Yes following the removal of the 30 foot range on Ruthless Assault removing Pounce now with no compensation would make WE insanely easy to kill. I'd farm them all day long (I do anyway on my AM / RP / WL even with Pounce).

WH got additional range generator + 25% additional BAL/Abso crit chance, WE got Pounce / Sac Stab. I have both at 80+ and I love them both equally. They are now quite different, WH you range kite with Flowing Accusations, WE you face-tank and try to avoid being kited.

In what areas are WH/WE lacking that prevents them from being good for example in 6man groups? WE has access to both ingoing and outgoing heal debuff, has wounds and other stats debuffs, has snares, knockdown, powerful stagger, antyres, mobility, relics for defence and literally S tier damage that doesn't care what target is she hitting, be it a cloth healer or an armored knight. I won't speak about WB's environment because this is not something i engage with, but i heard at least WH's has some good possibilities now. So your argument makes zero sense. Here on forums i hear all the time, that this is a team game and solo play is only an abomination, which i deeply disagree with, but don't turn it inside out, that some classes are only meant for solo play which is clearly not the case.

As for ruthless assault i don't really know what you are talking about. WE doesn't have access to flowing accusations, she couldn't be played as a short range kiter similar to WH. This skill didn't make any difference in her ability to close the gap or to escape. Maybe in some specific matchups, like versus WH you could use the cooldown once while WH was spamming absos or Trials, but you would be outdamaged and i don't see a point. Care to elaborate further?

Ok, you don't know WE or understand the mdps patch nor the solo meta (which is RP > WL > Zeal > def WE). Ruthless Assault was the WEs 1 anti kite tool, it was nerfed to 5 feet range from 30. It also hit like a truck doing BAL level damage pre nerf, way more than Witchbrew and similar to Sac Stab. I actually agree with removing the range though, WH thematically fits with having ranged abilities, WE does not. However compensation was needed for WH getting greater ranged ability and the crit tactic.

Ultimately balance is holistic, order has Pounce on WL, aSW and destro has it on WE, mSH.

[PROsiak]

Ok, you don't know WE or understand the mdps patch nor the solo meta (which is RP > WL > Zeal > def WE). Ruthless Assault was the WEs 1 anti kite tool, it was nerfed to 5 feet range from 30. Which I actually agree with, WH thematically fits with having ranged abilities, WE does not. However compensation was needed for WH getting greater ranged ability and the crit tactic.

Ultimately balance is holistic, order has Pounce on WL, aSW and destro has it on WE, mSH.

Aaaaaand we're back to the same point we were at few days ago. Something tells me, if the devs were to add a 100ft 5sec cd blink to WE, you would still be defending this, cause WL/RP > def WE. You are unable to think outside of your little box, so i'm out of this discussion. I asked you about Ruthless assault and again as always you didn't provide any info, you just repeated the same statement you made.

[nat3s]

Ok, you don't know WE or understand the mdps patch nor the solo meta (which is RP > WL > Zeal > def WE). Ruthless Assault was the WEs 1 anti kite tool, it was nerfed to 5 feet range from 30. Which I actually agree with, WH thematically fits with having ranged abilities, WE does not. However compensation was needed for WH getting greater ranged ability and the crit tactic.

Ultimately balance is holistic, order has Pounce on WL, aSW and destro has it on WE, mSH.

Aaaaaand we're back to the same point we were at few days ago. Something tells me, if the devs were to add a 100ft 5sec cd blink to WE, you would still be defending this, cause WL/RP > def WE. You are unable to think outside of your little box, so i'm out of this discussion. I asked you about Ruthless assault and again as always you didn't provide any info, you just repeated the same statement you made.

What? I literally covered RA in the post you quoted. You do you fella, don't take it personally, I just disagree with you.

Is your engi Prosiaq? If so, I understand why you're angry with me, but I did just blow you a couple of kisses just now

[PROsiak]

What? I literally covered RA in the post you quoted. You do you fella, don't take it personally, I just disagree with you.

Is your engi Prosiaq? If so, I understand why you're angry with me, but I did just blow you a couple of kisses just now

You probably included that in the edit. When i was writing the reply there was just the statement about 'RA being number 1 kite tool'.

All of my character names are some variations of 'Prosiak', so yea, must have been me. But i don't recall having any duels with WE's recently, only got jumped by a couple of them a few times while i was waiting for my party to finish sc's. So i guess my luck is you were one of them?

I'm not holding any grudge against you, i'm just allergic to people making poor arguments or made up claims. And since you are always falling back to the same 'safe space' which is WE losing to RP/WL or whatever it is, where it is only the tiny fraction of what is happening with the class or in the game in general.
As i said, nothing productive is coming out of our discussion, let's agree to disagree and shake on it. Few weeks from now i probably will be playing other games, so maybe once i come back things will be different. Or maybe you were always right, things are balanced and will stay as is or maybe WE will receive some other buffs, who knows?

[nat3s]

What? I literally covered RA in the post you quoted. You do you fella, don't take it personally, I just disagree with you.

Is your engi Prosiaq? If so, I understand why you're angry with me, but I did just blow you a couple of kisses just now

You probably included that in the edit. When i was writing the reply there was just the statement about 'RA being number 1 kite tool'.

All of my character names are some variations of 'Prosiak', so yea, must have been me. But i don't recall having any duels with WE's recently, only got jumped by a couple of them a few times while i was waiting for my party to finish sc's. So i guess my luck is you were one of them?

I'm not holding any grudge against you, i'm just allergic to people making poor arguments or made up claims. And since you are always falling back to the same 'safe space' which is WE losing to RP/WL or whatever it is, where it is only the tiny fraction of what is happening with the class or in the game in general.
As i said, nothing productive is coming out of our discussion, let's agree to disagree and shake on it. Few weeks from now i probably will be playing other games, so maybe once i come back things will be different. Or maybe you were always right, things are balanced and will stay as is or maybe WE will receive some other buffs, who knows?

Making poor arguments is subjective, my opinions are based on exclusively solo roaming on my RP, parry WH, def WE, def AM, dual hot tough Sham, def Mag and regen Chosen, but yes happy to agree to disagree.