SM Role Hypocrites

[Izariel]

I have been an outspoken proponent of buffing the SM because I feel it underperforms when held against the other Order tanks. What I am posting about is this.

1. Why, whenever I try to point out that SM is weaker than its counterparts that inevitably the first comment is, "Well, its the best dps."?

SM is a tank role, so its dps is more or less irrelevant. I find it astounding that when the situation is reversed to say an AM asking about dps, they are shouted down and told "Heal or else", or "DPS AM are all fail".

So, saying that SM is the best dps is pretty much like saying that AM is the best dps healer. Who cares? It is not their spec and in this game we are more or less forced to play the correct role of our classes or GTFO.

So, next time I talk about the SM in game please don't tell me how good a dps it is when that is largely irrelevant.

Thank you,

[peterthepan3]

1. Why, whenever I try to point out that SM is weaker than its counterparts that inevitably the first comment is, "Well, its the best dps."?

First and foremost: I do believe that the SM needs some love, particularly with the middle tree. However it is imperative when deciding how to fix the class/ascertaining what is necessary, that we do bear in mind how potent it is as an offensive tank. Being a tank doesn't necessitate turtletank, sword and shield and terrible damage, and the Swordmaster - along with the Black Orc - was designed to be the offensive tank on Order: it is the only tank that can reliably use a 2h and not really worry about lack of defenses, due to Wall of Darting Steel (I'd say IB is a close contender); it has a base 25% parry ability; Great Weapon Mastery, etc. If played by a competent player, it can deal close to MDPS-levels of damage. This is why, when discussing change, this must be taken into consideration (some of Penril's points on another thread resonate with what I think in regards to this)

So when people say that, they're probably just concerned that if the class is given too much of a buff, it could become pretty powerful. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be buffed - because it should - and I think Aza's Vaul suggestion/KB is warranted, allowing SMs to go turtle and be useful like that, if they so wish.

[Fey]

I'm particularly interested in how the dev. team is going to balance tanks as a whole, not just SM. Right now KotBS and chosen triple auras provide an insane amount of utility. Any short duration buffs provided by the SM/BO that are group-based will have to be quite potent to compensate for the lack of persistence. IB/BG single buffs would have to be more potent still. Either some sort of wounds/reduced crit buff that cannot be stripped, or perhaps a longer duration CC immunity that can be stripped. IMO tanks are the hardest to balance. Really it's the mechanic that's messing everything up right now, what's new eh?

[Aethilmar]

Before this thread gets locked, I'll note that SM 2-hander Khaine/Vaul tanks are pretty good at what they do which is guarding mdps onto target and supplemental damage/CC. S&B/2H Hoethe tanks are also decent at what they do which is Whispering Wind botting as long as your group is set up for that.

But S&B Vaul tanking kind of sucks and has only limited utility. Also, SMs are the easiest tank to shut down due to AP drains b/c they don't have the nice AP bonus aura of Knights nor the secondary resources of IBs. They are also not quite as good as BO in utility since BO are excellent snare bots and have awesome squishy 2-H damage.

So, yeah, they are meh compared to the other tanks. They have never been the best during the lifetime of the game. I don't expect that to change in its afterlife.

[altharion1]

SM is currently the meta off tank in 6v6.

As the game progresses and gear creep sets in you'll see the IB over take it at end game. The dots EA and PE do not scale well with rank level or stats, nor does the shock ticks from forceful shock.

We are better off addressing the issues with the SMs utility and defensive specs once that staged is reached

[Azarael]

I don't intend to see that happen.

[Izariel]

I don't intend to see that happen.

Thank you my good sir. That is very good to hear. May I ask, what role/niche do you see SM filling in War? Do you have an idea of where you want to take the class?

[topaz85]

Hopefully this time around devs will adress things like variety of builds so no one will ever tell you things like :

Oh you are AM so you're suppose to heal.
If you read up the lore - Archmages are the ones that basically told how to use magic to imperials. In short words AM's could and should be able to sling (fairly easily) as much DPS as BW's if they wish to do so.

But because it's a game and AM's just one of the classes in it I think they will have to adress at some point each class with at least two different and valid roles for each class e.g.:
SM's being able to TANK
or
SM's being able to dish out some good/decent MDPS
or
SM's being good debuff/buff/cc'ers
While sacrificing one in favour of the other.

Your kotbs/chosen want More dps? less crowdcontrol and/or tankyness for you then.

same thing for AM's.
Want good dps? ok. sacrifice a lot of that healing power.

WL good aoe dmg or ST dmg or utility/cc

And go with that kind of thinking through all the classes that need it (like Kotbs, chosens, engies, maguses, am's/shammies, etc)
While yer on the subject do something about skill tree unlockable skills that are either irrelevant for dps/tank/other builds or are heavily underperforming (like relentless or 15 point m4 unlocked morale for chosens).

P.S. kotbs dps <<<<<< chosens (by saying that I don't mean nurf chosens... I mean buff Kotbs and fix them both so they can spec effectively for dps if they wish to do so) - prime example from my experience so you could spec to kill healers/casters while dishing good damage numbers.

Good example of proper dps for a tank might be a DPS BO that can 3-4k crit people (casters and debuffed medium armors - not tanks) with SYF and some other skill I can't remember any more.

[zumos2]

The whole point of the SM is that you can be really hard to kill even with a 2h and offensive spec. Any buffs made to the SnB SM spec should take into mind not further buffing the 2h because it really doesn't need it. But you are very narrow visioned if you think a tank should not do any damage and just be a pure defense monster. Any tank should try to become as offensive as he can whilst still surviving. For large scale this generally means you have to become pretty defensive with a shield, although SM could survive with a 2h as well if he really wants.

[Jaycub]

>SM is a tank role, so its dps is more or less irrelevant.

Spoiler: