Feedback of AoE Changes / Future Suggestions

[Haojin]

The last patch added at 31/01/2017 and it's already 16th day. I think we got enough feedback what's actually happening.

Feedback from Day 1 in spoiler:

Spoiler:

Feedback from day 1:

As a guild we decide to go with full MDPS [ RDPS bombing is totally useless ] yesterday to see what happens IF we all go AoE .

The general composition was like that:

2 Party with: BO+CH+Chop+Mara+Zea+Dok
2 Party with: BO+CH+2X Choppa+Zea+Dok

Feeling:
1-AoE Damage was crap as expected. [ Min:30 Max:3000]
2-Pushing backline with RD + Charge with 8 MDPS wasFUN
3-Survivability is high to due to nerf + defensibility of MDPS
4-AoE Blob Killer Moments was really rare and situational [ My demolution critted like 3 k and it was fun]
5-Fights continued really LONG like 4-5 min and it was FUN and SILLY at the same time. [ I think that was the main problem of zergy fights cause they're really quick. ]

In that moment we decide to go FULL ST to see what happens:

Feeling:
1-You need to set 4/2 MA's for each/2 party. [Which is nearly impossible for us cause i can't call the targets for my party when calling for general positional commands for 24 man while other 3 party calling their targets. Total chaos.]
2-Without sustain AoE damage, you can be surrounded easly.

Optimal solution:
1-You need to be hybrid as much as possible.
2-You need sustain [?] aoe damage to move comfortly inside the zerg but you also need ST abilities finish some targets.
3-If you see a opportunity to use blob killer abilities you should go for it immidiately.
4-Morales are more important now due to lack of aoe damage.

.................................................................

Final thoughts:
1-The new system forces warbands to be hybrid.
2-The new system compeletly forces rdps to play ST which is not OK.
3-Fights continues more longer.
4-There is a possibility for existence suicide squads like [ 4 mara - 2 healer ]. Because party members won't debuff you at all.
5-Damage scale is totally randomish [ 30 to 3000 with same ability.]
6-Keeps will become a slaughterhouse for both sides. If you get flanked by mdps bomb, it's gg.
7-Lack of mobility, lack of effective CC, perma snares, collusion, flanking is HARD.

Feedback from day 16:

The first and the most important question is why that patch implemented ? What was the actual problem ? Because, i feel like we got a definition problem here. Everyone on the 31/01/2017 thread was thinking about that AoE changes gonna punish "ZERGING" but truth is different. It's obvious that, the zerg problem still exist.

From the dictionary: Zerg is a slang term for a group of low-level gamers who depend on overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, rather than relying on technique or strategy.

The new system punishes BLOBBING not ZERGING and BLOB formation isn't the biggest problem. Most of the game mechanics forces players act like a BLOB.

For example [in warband size]:
-Circular aoe abilities.
-Guard
-Assisting
-Hold the Line
-Rift
-Keeps
-Some BO's
-Warcamps

If the real problem is blobbing, other things i mentioned above should be nerfed also [ funny eh ] .


Here's how the new system works atm:

Spoiler:

11 Players, definetly not a zerg but blobbed up and PUNISHED.

Spoiler:

More than 1 warband aka ZERG not blobbed up and not get PUNISHED.


Observations:

1-%90 of RvR Guilds are losing their interest about the game due to FORCED to play ST as a warband. You can already see the population loss. [ Please do not try to teach anything, just let 4 MA calling the targets while everyone trying to focus the leaders orders in voice comms. Total chaos/bad experience.]

2-RDPS bombing is history.

3-If you fight agaist 1:2 - 1:1.5 there is no chance to win a fight. Actually this encourages zerging [ as a warband, as soon as your backline hitted it's gg. Normally with AoE warbands, backline [ healers ] or bomb spot [ dps+ tank ] could merge if they're in trouble. ]

4-All AoE specs are useless or spam 1 ability if you got opportunity. [ Mps with 0 point in AoE tree could easly crit 2k+ ]

VIDEO 1

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

VIDEO 2

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

VIDEO 3

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

VIDEO 4

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

5-Punishment MOSTLY works in Keeps and Blob friendly BO's.

6-Everyone forced to play fotm 6 man setups which kills utility, support setups. [ like bad gas squig, morale/ap drain mara , rift magus]

7-Even you make perfect manuevers ALWAYS a pug fills the space and **** your AoE. [ Same like AoE Cannons ]

8-Keep defences are way too easy with 2 TANK 1 MDPS 3 HEALER kamikaze squad. And also easy when attacking with some backup.

9-Punishing starts with 6+ and debuffing starts with 1 which is not a definition of zerg.

10-We need confirmation but friendly corpses debuffing also.


I'm just wondering which setup/strategy would be best for current system. Actually we tried almost everything and all options felt "meh":

-24 Man oldscholl bomb
-12 AoE 12 ST
-24 man Mdps ST [ 4 MA ]
-24 man Rdps ST [ 4 MA ]
-12 Rdps ST, 12 Mdps ST [ 4 MA ]
-18 Rdps ST, 6 Mdps ST [ 4 MA ]
-24 Man Proc Bombing
-24 Man Range Bombing

Suggestions:

*-My ideal solution for countering zerg would be like that in short term:

-Revert of AoE change
-Rework Morale damage
-Rework CC's.
-Rework collusion.
-Redesign of RvR [ Thats another threads topic but all i can say is, fixing choking points + spreading players on the map would help a lot.]
-Encourage people to join organized guilds.
-Making more active zones


If the new system continue like that some tweaks have to be done to define zerg:

1-Debuff numbers have to change. [ F.E: Starts with 24+ people with %X each target]
2-Damage buff numbers have to change. [ F.E: Starts with X+ people with %X each target]

Thanks for reading.

[Noiree]

Experience from pugging: It definitely led to even more mdps going full retard by solo jumping into groups of enemies, exploding like balloons at a kid's party.

[slaneesha]

Nice feedback, Hao


I am also tempted to add that, prolly due to the timer of refresh or a bug, single skills are impacted by the new aoe system. Some players noticed that their damages decreased whenever a player entered the area of fight.

[Tesq]

totally agree, in particular

rework morales 2----->this is the only real aoe skill related problem we have in game
->is true that cone aoe is inferior to cirular aoe but that should mean buff/debuff all these type of skill directly

the solution to moral 2 are only ,and im serious, either:
-all m2 moral which do istant 1200 dmg to 9 ppl became channeling as raze (and so interruptable and coutnerplayable with not coutner to coutner play as aoe interrupt exist in game and cannot be stopped)
-all m2 dmg which are not channeling recive a cut to the value (half)

or possible difference regard cone vs circular aoe skill

[roadkillrobin]

I would also sugest reverting the current AoE changes, it's a system that simply doesn't acomplish anything but just dumbs down ORVR combat to a point were it's ridculus bad gameplay. It just completly throw out so many group setups, abilites, specs, mastery paths and classes in the bin.

24man warbands played very well with the old system. The game was designed to be played in this way for ORVR. It basicly takes the concept of a 6man group and expands it to a 24man group. Instead of melee training a single player, you're melee training or focusing a location The concept is basicly the same. And the counter to bombing playstyle is having a warbands that better at it and take procedures to try and counter what the other realm is doing.. It's not meant to be played as 4 6man groups. It simply doesn't work to play that style in large scale combat. People need to adapt to the playstyle. Jusy like how when 24man breaks down to 6mans and adapt to that playstyle when they do scenarios.

Instead of completly trashing the system that this game is based on i think enhancing it would be a much better way to go with it.
I think there are 4 main issues that need to be looked at.

1: Morale Bombs. I don't think i need to explain this. 18+ people just dropping uncounterble damage after 15 seconds of engagement is just bad. I would remove every single AoE dps morale from the t1-3 Morale slots and rework those morales to short group damage buffs/ AoE mitigration debuffs instead. Down below is a proposal of how I think is a good sollution to this issue.

Spoiler:

I took some time and looked over the morales and figured that you could just move some morales around to fix a lot of issues. This should fix several of the concerns that I brought up such as removing morale dumps, increase the skill floor with higher survival early on in the engagement and it also fix the Immaculate Defense issue in small scale.

Bright Wizard, Ruin and Destruction moved to core Morale 4. Unleash the Winds moved to Morale 2 slot and damage removed.

Ironbreaker, Raze moved to Morale 4 Core. It also increase your chance to dodge and interrupt by 100% while Channeling. Immaculate Defense moved to 15 points in Path of Stone Mastery. Strength In Numbers moved to core M2.

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Raze moved to Morale 4 Core. It also increase your chance to dodge and interrupt by 100% while Channeling. Immaculate Defense moved to 15 points in Path of Vigilance. Flawless Defense moved to core M2 and duration lowered to 5 seconds. Remove the Damage from No Escape.

Shadow Warrior, Remove damage from Outrider Patrol, it now increases the damage taken by 25% to anyone struck by it for 7 seconds. Remove Damage from Instill Fear.

Swordmaster, Raze moved to Morale 4 Core. It also increase your chance to dodge and interrupt by 100% while Channeling. Immaculate Defense moved to 15 points in Vaul. Shield of Valor moved to core M2.

Warrior Priest, Remove Damage from Penance.

White Lion, Remove Damage of Flying Axe. It will now reduce Armor by 825 and all resist by 315 of everyone struck by it for 10 seconds.

Witch Hunter, Remove damage from Reversal of Fortune. It now reduce the chance to Dodge, Block, Parry and Disrupt attacks by 50% for 10 seconds. For anyone struck. (Example, If someone got 30% Block chance this morale lowers it to 15%. Not -20)

Black Guard, Raze moved to Morale 4 Core. It also increase your chance to dodge and interrupt by 100% while Channeling. Immaculate Defense moved to 15 points in Path of Loathing. Khaines Warding moved to core M2.
Damage Removed from Away, Cretins!

Black Orcs, Raze moved to Morale 4 Core. It also increase your chance to dodge and interrupt by 100% while Channeling. Immaculate Defense moved to 15 points in Path of Da Toughest. Moved Can’t Touch Us to core M2. Remove damage from Deafening Bellow.

Chosen, Raze moved to Morale 4 Core. It also increase your chance to dodge and interrupt by 100% while Channeling. Immaculate Defense moved to 15 points in Path of Corruption. Sprout Carapace moved core M2 and duration lowered to 20 seconds.

Disciple of Khaine, Remove damage of Universal Confusion.

Magus, Moved Rolling Winds to core M4. Moved Unleash the Winds to core M2 and damage removed.

Marauder, Removed damage from Great Fang. Will now shatter all absorbs from all targets struck.

Squig Herder, Remove damage from Squig Goo.

Zealot, remove the damage from Suppressing the Fragile Unbelievers.

Witch Elf, Remove damage from Webb of Shadows. It now reduce the chance to Dodge, Block, Parry and Disrupt attacks by 50% for 10 seconds. For anyone struck. (Example, If someone got a 30% Block chance this morale lowers it to 15%. Not -20)

2: Warband inclusivity. There are a couple of classes that needs to be looked at for 24man warbands as they bring almoast nothing benefitial to a Warband that someone else allready does better. The main classes that needs to be looked at is BG, WE WH and WL.

3: Increased skill floor. I think one way to make ORVR more fun is by making it a bit more challening. For example could you make it more dependant on using the new morales i've sugested thats more based on group buff and AoE debuffs aswell as rotating defensives morales for the support classes etz. Increasing or adding CD's to skills thats deemed spammeble is another one, so people got more they need to keep track of. Just some examples.

4: RVR design. Even tho this RVR design is one of the better one thats ever been in this game. I still think it's boring and way to much focus on the keeps. I'm gona post a RVR deign i made a couple of weeks ago that I think would be pretty to play around with aswell as breaking the monotony of every zone feeling the same.

Spoiler:

Nu(V)enons RVR system.

Imagine the basic function of RVR pretty much work like a modified version of Nordenwatch. RVR lakes pretty much becomes a point race.

The idea here is that lakes can flip by several play styles working together.This will stop the forcing of multiple warbands in one area as RVR zones are too big to just roam around as a massive blob with this system.

BO: Remove timers. To capture a BO you only need to stand in close proximity to the flag for X amount of time, (around 20 seconds should be sufficient) without any hostile players contesting the same area. (Imagine Nordenwatch cap mechanic) To prevent solo roamers 4 Champions and a Hero spawns for the realm flipping the flag as soon as it's fully captured. A flipped BO rewards your realm 10 points/second while subtracting 1 point/second for the enemy realm.

Keeps: The main change from current mechanic is that a keep resets back to original owner 10 min after it has been taken. You may pick up rams anytime you like and for the sake of opportunity doors can once again be attacked by attacks that uses STR baseline. Doors are immune to Int and BS based attacks. 10min after a keep has been taken, the relevant mighty entity (Gork for Greenskin Keeps, Khaine for Elf Keeps etz)takes interest in the fight and blast the keep area for 50 000 damage to prevent any enemies from camping inside the taken keep area.
Killing an enemy keep lord will reward the attacking realm 100 000 points and subtract 10 000 points from enemy points.

Kills: Kills awards your realm 5 points and subtract 1 point from the enemy points.

Flipping the zone: The realm that first manage accumulate 500 000 points gets the win.

This mechanic can be easily tweaked for every different RVR lake so each zone can have its individual flavor. For example, one zone can have strategically placed and hard to obtain orbs that can be gathered in specific locations spread over the map that grants players buffs for when they score kills will award 50 points and subtract 10 instead. (Was thinking of something like Orbs of Molten Core in Thunder Mountain) Another zone can have the strength of Keep Lords spawning on BO’s rather then the standard Hero, while the Keeps em self is fairly easy to capture and and a much weaker lord. This would also be represented in the realm score in those zones. Such a mechanic can rewards BO’s with 50 points/second while subtracting 5 and Keeps for 50 000 points and subtracting 5000 when the keep flips. I'm pretty sure a creative game designer can come up with some interesting ways to tweak those numbers in interesting ways to make ORVR much more dynamic.

[Penril]

You guys already gave us your thoughts on the other thread; I don't see the need to do it again. I will leave the thread open though so other players (and not you 3) give us their feedback. There is no need to read the same 3 people posting the same thing again and again and again.

In case I wasn't clear: don't turn this thread into a 3-way conversation between Hao, Tesq and Roadkillrobin. Thanks.

[lastalien]

You guys already gave us your thoughts on the other thread; I don't see the need to do it again. I will leave the thread open though so other players (and not you 3) give us their feedback. There is no need to read the same 3 people posting the same thing again and again and again.

In case I wasn't clear: don't turn this thread into a 3-way conversation between Hao, Tesq and Roadkillrobin. Thanks.

Мaybe I am, too, in the number 3, which again and again.

But I fully agree with Haojin.
After a patch with changes in AoE, the guild lost several people online. And the number of new arrivals do not compensate for the loss in humans.
For the server administration is perhaps irrelevant, a guild is less than or more, as an way to ideal Warhammer closer.

[Miszczu5647]

Some feedback from my POV:
Last week in Praag order warband took Kurlov Armory. It was PUG warband. They prepared defense (tanks in front, healers on balcony). We have 12 players (8 on voice comm) - 2 tanks, 4 healers and 6 dps. Chosen put guard on monstro marauder (he started this build long before AoE patch). And they attack. We focus heal them until first death blows. Then rest of our dps join. We slaughter whole warband. Order healers could not outheal dmg from demolition.
It was great feeling to slaughter them, true. But is this really was like suppose to be? Did they zerg? Hell no, it was one warband in one place. Did they blob? Sure, but in Kurlov Armory they don't have choice.
Don't have any suggestion right now so I will end.

Side note: I like roadkillrobin idea about different victory condition for different zone.

[Daknallbomb]

Every fact to that changes every discussion about can tell a lot of Things But fact is zerg still goes on like IT ever was. So If The changes where implemented to break the zerg it dont works and i could cry about that cause i rly hoped that it works

[Pumatouch]

A few things have occured to me in this patch testing phase. The word Blob has been introduced here, while it stems from other games. In said games Collision was not an inherent problem to movement in the field; sick maneuvers could be pulled off to finish dat Blob in said games, while they are prevented of it in Warhammer as it is today. It is my understanding by now that this inability to move freely is at the core of most of our problems here, correct me if you will. The type of gameplay promoted from Developer side, at any rate, seems to revolve around fast hit'n'run maneuvers.
By now you have demonstrated to us that you have the capabilities to count targets in a cone/aoe area. I would propose a seperate testing phase, wherein the focus would not be on AoE Dmg multipliers or nullifers, but on Collision Treatment instead.

Determine Dense Grouping. With AoE Dmg as an example, the grouping is 6+ for Dmg buffs and +1 (non-group) for debuffs.
Initial proposal as follows, Imagine

- In a Dense Grouping situation, Tanks should retain full Collision, possibly even a Shield-Only ability. All other classes should be subjected to Collision Treatment as follows; If Dense Grouping occurs on your side, you retain friendly collision and might stumble, but become unable to block enemies who will move freely towards their targets.
As a result Tanks will have a much more vital role to play as Guards. Succesful attempts to break through a tankwall is rewarded with free access to the softspots, the healers mostly. Positioning will still be the most important aspect of an attack or defense. Breaking into a tight formation will be like punching multiple holes in a can with fluid inside, if you will.

Homemade bonus for the ones sacrificing tactic slots for the warband, [Forceful Presence] tactic: Retain Collision against Enemies in Dense Groupings.

Can this sort of magic be performed on Collision as it is these days? We know you can count us rats