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SM healing tactics

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SM healing tactics

Post#1 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:44 pm

I wanted to know what the the devs (more specifically Torque) think about the two healing tactics of SM. The tactics are bolstering enchantments (heals group mates (over time) when blade enchantments trigger) and blessing of heaven (path of hoeth abilities place an effect on enemy that heals allies (over time) that hit him).

As far as healing goes, the amount of YOUR healing is increased with wp, per the tooltip. Now, that doesn't work for BoH for some reason, but it does work for BE. Also keep in mind both tactics can crit. BE healing is pretty weird. It goes all over the place, with about 230 wp it's usually around 83 per tick, but it sometimes goes bellow that or even above that, to 90+(not crit). Consider that usually it doesn't heal for the tooltip value (at maxed out tree it's supposed to be 405, and there are 4 ticks), you would need to have a decent amount of wp for that I guess. At around 230 wp it still heals about 20% less than tooltip. Now I am no expert in healing obv, and I don't know how formulas work, but I just find it odd. So I am wondering, are these tactics working as intended, especially BoH?

Another thing I wanted to talk about with the players, is the idea of healing tanks/warriors (more popularly known as paladins in rpg games). I believe there is an intention here in the case of SM, to make it somewhat a 'paladin' archetype, in addition to his dps tank archetype. We all know how great they are in a dps spec, but what about his tanking support spec? I think it's very underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, SM can be quite tanky with snb, but I'm talking more about these healing tactics. As people probably know, the healing is pretty lackluster when it comes to smaller scale (I doubt anyone in their right mind would spec them). In scs I can do about 10-20k healing (maybe more if it lasts long), but keep in mind this is obviously not direct healing. We are talking about HoTs here, basically fluf healing. For rvr, BoH is not so bad I guess, since it heals every ally who hits the enemy (WoH is in that tree so you can just spam it to put the buff on everyone around you). Maybe that's the reason wp doesn't increase the healing, but I think that would be pretty lame.

Now someone might think "20k for a tank? Not THAT bad.", but when you realize how much you gimp yourself for that and that it's HoTs, it becomes clear that it's quite disappointing. If you want any 'decent' amount of healing, you need to increase your wp somehow. It would be stupid to do it with rr, so I used gear, specifically rings and cloak (green gear from merchants). I didn't find heal crit to be useful since you need to pretty much max it out with rr to make any difference, which is obviously very bad.

In total, there are 3 pieces of gear that you can buy from merchants that have willpower on them, they will give you 65 wp. It would probably be better to use talis for that tho, since gimping yourself with that cloak and rings just sucks even more (I lose precious morale gain and ini). So if you took 6 20wp talis, that's 120 wp + 98 base wp gives you 318. I'm still pretty sure that even at that amount, your 'healing' wouldn't change dramatically. If I did that, I would lose some 1k hp, since I have wounds now for rvr purposes. And now you see how gimping it is. Losing 1k hp in rvr is quite a big deal for a tank (with morales flying everywhere, and destro morales being op ofc) and the return it would have is very minimal.

So you gimped yourself completely, and your healing is still not much better, if at all. Remember that BoH doesn't even increase with wp. The only change you did is mildly increase the healing for your party, congratulations I guess :P

Now with all that in mind, what do you think about this? Is the idea of healing tanks something you like? Is there anything that can be done to change this, or do you think it works as intended, and giving healing to tanks would break balance/make them op? I personally love the idea of paladins as classes. It would give you more possibilities, more specs to play. You can have gear and bonuses concentrated towards it, maybe even abilities. I hope I convinced people that the current situation leaves much to be desired. The same thing applies to BO, who only has one healing tactic in his right tree.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: SM healing tactics

Post#2 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:50 pm

Tried this out extensively with Isha's Protection giving 20% more heals, the 2 heal tactics, and absorb tactic from vaul. Anni chest, conqueror 5th piece, and 4 x hp jewels.

Often ended up with 50/60k+ healing. Remember that the Hoeth ability can heal per target, so try to keep it up via WoH/cycling targets.

It's a lol spec, doesn't really serve any purpose outside of maybe a fun duo (with an IB, it could be very fun due to their WP buff - Volgo, you around?!), and as you said doesn't help in competitive fights; waste of tactics.

Would be interesting to make it str/toughness/wounds based healing for BE. I think the BO variant is also pretty lackluster. What if healing component was increased significantly? Though that would probably require moving tactics higher up in the trees.
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Osred
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#3 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:53 pm

Ive managed to hit 100k+ a couple times. Then again that mightve been in BFP. As peter says, its a lol spec. I ran it for fun to see if I can beat healers, unfortunately I do.

Also SM healing is based off of mastery level not willpower, neither is the Blorcs.
Last edited by Osred on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Osri - 40/79 - Runepriest
Osarion 40/82 - Swordmaster
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peterthepan3
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#4 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:54 pm

It's true. We had to kick two healers from guild when Os started getting more healing than them!
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#5 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:55 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Tried this out extensively with Isha's Protection giving 20% more heals, the 2 heal tactics, and absorb tactic from vaul. Anni chest, conqueror 5th piece, and 4 x hp jewels.

Often ended up with 50/60k+ healing. Remember that the Hoeth ability can heal per target, so try to keep it up via WoH/cycling targets.

It's a lol spec, doesn't really serve any purpose outside of maybe a fun duo (with an IB, it could be very fun due to their WP buff - Volgo, you around?!), and as you said doesn't help in competitive fights; waste of tactics.

Would be interesting to make it str/toughness/wounds based healing for BE. I think the BO variant is also pretty lackluster. What if healing component was increased significantly? Though that would probably require moving tactics higher up in the trees.
I was talking more about group healing, like the tactics do, not self heal for survival/soloing. Sure SM can stack self heal, as can IB, BO, BG and a number of other classes. What I would love to see is more group concentrated healing from tanks. Remember what you alwys repeat? It's a group based game ;)

But it's true that if you increase the healing, the solo potential increases a lot also, since as you guys said, you can already heal yourself for a lot.

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peterthepan3
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#6 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:03 pm

Haha =P

Well it would have to be fine-tuned so that if a SM could effectively play as a Paladin (like you said), his DPS potential would significantly suffer. How would you balance this, though? Why would you pick a tank that gives healing potential if: a) you have competent healers already; b) you would have to take a tank that offers no longrange KB c) essentially you would have to take another DPS tank to offset the loss of DPS from a paladin-esque SM?
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Tesq
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#7 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:04 pm

paladins like class has always been hard to balance, paladins got from D&D as idea,

heal,dmg, tank all into 1 class. The only exeption is controll which is more a knd of expert melee fighter or magic caster.

Since tank here can aswell controll then you re lookin at heal, dmg, tank, controll onto 1 class..... that's hard to balance; the only way is make the class do lol dmg (but still requrie hit something into melee and that will translate into a paladin

tank-heal-controll.

that's is basically wp/dok as originally planned....

then you still have a MAD problem, and a balance between 2/3 thing a class should be able to do in this game:

dmg, durability , support.

if heal and contr end in this category then you first need to balance the heal vs controll capacity of 1 class then you will have to balance the class to be able to only have 2 out 3 reliable in any spec.

Kinda a hard process without any major rewamp to game itself.... the closest thing you can do is give a tanks no controll, and just heals; that's is the pretty staple paladin. (durability+heals)

durability, guard, and heals....he trade controll for heals as a whole. That's the only way i can see something into this game be balanced /fit for that; rest is fluff

to point into some exemple how bad things can turn out:

paladin D&D 3rd ed --> crap, no dmg, no heals, no real durability unless cross mirroring with other class, no controll unless cross mirror with other class

paldin D&D 4th ed---> OP : good anti horde aoe dmg , nice vs boss st dmg, best healer in game(gamebreakign level), but no controll(well there was no need for that.....).


if you look at wow also deathknigh was imba at relase for what i heard; tough i think thats is a godd exemple of succesfull class that can do all roles post nerf.

These are some straight forward exemple tough NONE of these exemple is taken from a pvp game/system. (well DM in D&D is a kind of player still the system is not pvp)
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#8 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:11 pm

Honestly I don't ever see it working in small group setups really (I know that's how you peter play and you look at it from that perspective). From that perspective everything you said is true. If you have healers, a 'paladin' is useless and you just lose on dmg, as SM is an offensive tank mostly, so you need to compensate for that also. In the end it turns out worhtless. You would literally have to give SM direct healing abilities if you wanted to give him some purpose in smaller scale. And then you come back to the fact that everyone and their mother stacks armour talis with pots on healers, so they essentially become tanks themselves haha.

But as a zergling that I am, I'm thinking about larger scale. That's why I would like Torque to say whether BoH works properly or not, since it's not such a bad tactic for rvr.

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CytheX
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#9 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:45 pm

Is this post really happening?

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wargrimnir
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Re: SM healing tactics

Post#10 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:53 pm

CytheX wrote:Is this post really happening?
Yes, it seems to be.

We have 6 tanks, they're pretty tanky. You've got a handful of subpar abilities that give them flavor, despite being meh. Players attest as a lol-spec, they work.

I mean, that's probably far enough right? They work, if you invest in them, to embarrass healers in RvR.

What I think we're not focusing enough on, is the potential for Dok/WP to act as an off-tank when specc'd properly. Maybe if they had a shield...
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