[Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
germ32
Posts: 62

[Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound

Post#1 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:26 am

My mistake. I hadn't realized game logins worked on the forums, how embarrassing 8-) 8-) 8-) .

Anyways, here is my proposal:


Right now with Blackguards there is little synergy to be had with using a shield, there are only two abilities besides hold the line that even make use of shields - which are the knockdown and none shall pass. Given that their knockdown requires them to block in order to use it - the only reliable way to do this is to use none shall pass because blackguards have no tactics or abilities passively improve their block rating. This in my opinion is a problem because none shall pass is arguably worse than hold the line which is a base skill that every tank has.

The reason why I say that hold the line is better than none shall pass is because of the number of applicable use cases that they both have and the amount of times that hold the line out performs none shall pass in those use cases. The only advantage on paper that none shall pass offers that hold the line does not is the ability to also block 50% of melee attacks as well as 5% more ranged attacks during use. This is in fact negligible because black guards mitigate enough damage from melee opponents with just toughness and armor that you wont often need to use none shall pass when in melee combat. In addition you are not able to damage or debuff anyone while using none shall pass, and someone could easily step behind you and hit you anyways. From ranged hold the line outperforms none shall pass completely while helping your allies or just yourself initiate on an opponent because it grants you +45% dodge/disrupt and +15% dodge/ disrupt to your allies which will also help you proc endless pursuit for 30% more run speed and 40 ap. On top of this None shall pass has a 30s cooldown while hold the line has none. The career builder says that the cd is 10s but in game it is actually 30s.

The problem with s/b on Blackguards is that your main utility with a shield is gained from using an inefficient channeled ability just to be able to proc the use of your knockdown. In order to remedy this I propose the following changes:

1. Change the tactic Anger Drives Me to grant 2.5% block for every 10 hate instead of +3% parry for every 10 hate

2. Remove the cooldown from None Shall pass and lower its block bonus to grant +25% instead of +50%

3. Change the duration of spiteful slam to scale with hate for a duration of 2-4s (this just because if the knockdown becomes more reliable it is unfair for it to last 5s)


Blackguards are also the only tank that have just 1 dot/proc effect, I understand we are supposed to stay away from drawing comparisons to other classes when discussing balance and that black guards have a lot of debuffs but I think this is important to mention. If you consider that in any fight where you or your group mates take more than 5-10 seconds to kill a target, dots become a huge factor in whether or not you will eventually be able to out damage their sustain or if they will out sustain you. This is because dots give a higher amount of damage per gcd than do instant damage abilities if they are able to last the full duration. The counter argument to this being that burst is what kills people, this is true - but coming from someone who plays a dps marauder, it makes a big difference to have a tank that can contribute some form of dps when running an assist train. It is simply more effective to kill people than to just debuff and ignore them, which places blackguards at somewhat of a disadvantage in comparison to other tanks when using a s/b because outside of debuffing s/b blackguards don't contribute much in terms of damage. Im not saying blackguards should become the penultimate s/b wrecking ball that murders everything in their path, i just think they need some more options in terms of dealing damage that other tanks have access to.

With that being said I propose that the tactic Monstrous Ruin should be changed from its current state to instead grant 365 damage over 5 seconds to pitiless strike.

This would allow blackguards to have some means of damage other than enraged beating - at the cost of 20 hate every 5 seconds if they want to make efficient use of the tactic.

In addition to this I would also propose that Horrific Wound no longer scale on Hate. Blackguards Hate mechanic is intended to be designed for them to spend hate in order to deal damage and build hate to gain defense. Having the blackguard armor debuff scale with hatred is a bit counter intuitive and clunky.

I propose that Horrific Wound no longer scale with hate, and instead cost 30(25?) hate and apply an 800(scaling with left tree) armor debuff.

Please note that the values I have suggested are simply that - just suggestions. I am in no way saying that these should be the definitive values that are used, but I think they are a good starting point for discussion about what is fair.
Sympkiller - 7x Witch Elf
Phibes - 7x Marauder
Playerhater - 6x Blackguard
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound

Post#2 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:54 pm

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (10th May).

I am a fan of making None Shall Pass without a CD, akin to the BO variant. BG has pretty mediocre block values for a tank, so having a channel that can be relied could be hugely positive for WB tank play.

In regards to AMD giving block: given its position, and the fact that it is in Loathing tree - aka the tank tree - I would not be opposed to such a change, but it would hurt 2h defensive BGs (or any Malice BG that is speccing it, forsaking much of their arsenal). Perhaps make it give block if a SNB is equipped, and parry if not?

2.5% may be a bit too much (25% at 100 hate). Dan and I both thought 1.5 could be a happy medium?
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szejoza
Posts: 748

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#3 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:12 pm

1.5 is still 15% total of an avoidance stat that is the strongest version, other tank classes have 10% extra block at most, some are flat bonuses (like IB one), some depend on stance (BO/SM) and others require ability to land a hit (kotbs), I'd keep it at 10% at max to balance it between tanks. Not that I'm a big fan of that as already Pete said that changing the tactic will hurt defensive 2h BGs.

Point 2 seems most reasonable

As for 3. making it scaleable with hate will make it more like others KD, I can't tell if that's a good thing or not but BG comes away as a CC king in SnB with his current 5s KD and knockback to africa. Making it more akin to other classes will make the class more bland imo, also BGs already have an access to Get Down! KD, so giving the possibility of double stun with close to no requirement is too much to have on one class

I dont get how changing Monstrous Ruin and Horrific Wound are imbalanced to be either considered in this proposal, both are okay. Nothing OP, nothing utterly useless, proposed changes looks like a QoL change that you'd wish to have with nothing to back that up
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#4 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:20 pm

szejoza wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:12 pm 1.5 is still 15% total of an avoidance stat that is the strongest version, other tank classes have 10% extra block at most, some are flat bonuses (like IB one), some depend on stance (BO/SM) and others require ability to land a hit (kotbs), I'd keep it at 10% at max to balance it between tanks.
Well, the 13pt IB tactic, Shield Mastery, is 10% block plus you take only 95% damage. BO 10% block is a core tactic. BO/SM mirror is 0%, 5%, 10% conditional based on stance and sits at 3pt. There's a decent argument that at 13pt you should get 15% block or 10% + something else like IB has.
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szejoza
Posts: 748

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#5 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:25 pm

dansari wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:20 pm Well, the 13pt IB tactic, Shield Mastery, is 10% block plus you take only 95% damage. BO 10% block is a core tactic. BO/SM mirror is 0%, 5%, 10% conditional based on stance and sits at 3pt. There's a decent argument that at 13pt you should get 15% block or 10% + something else like IB has.
Right, I forgot that it got moved up in the tree. Still, changing it to a block will punish 2H defensive BGs :roll:
Still, if I'd have to pick between both I'd stay with parry for the sake of diversity
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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#6 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:18 pm

so you are going to remove the only avoidance tactic which make a 2h bg playable?

ADM dont need rewamp it's a pretty good tactic both for s+b and 2h and it shoudl remain that way, it was also moved up 11 pt so even if it can be use by 2h ppl it still so high to make an hedache any build.

BG dont need block he can go with 102% disrupt and as it stand now is the most durable tank destruction side and it dont need a block passive buff.
It also have the best toughness and the best magical dmg reduction if you spec for it.

None shall pass was put on 5pt because is a crap skill fo anything diff froma 5pt placement, there alredy was more than one voice to make it better and put it on 13pt and put lower on the mastery all the rest, they where all
rejected, the best way to make that is remove the channeling and make it a self buff a la vigilance, but this and any other rework would imply make move it up in the mastery and move down something else.

all this proposaòl move from the fact that tha BG need more block, it dosen't really and this would jut make more damage to bg overall(nerf) than improve (buff).

spitfull slam it requrie block EXATLY because bg have low block as chosen tactic require block to buff parry because chosen have low block. They were designed that way exatly to not give full perfect synergy....

tbh even armor debuff scale good enough with hate too, bg generate a lot of hate and yo just need to use skill in sequence to always have full armor debuff. First armor debuff and crit chance reduction then avoidance buff and crit debuff.
Last edited by Tesq on Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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germ32
Posts: 62

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#7 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:23 pm

You can still spec for elite training if you want a bit more survivability, which is arguably a better choice anyways because you then also get the ap debuff. I can agree with the 1.5% block per 10 hate but I think then none shall pass should give +35% block to maintain the +50% overall bonus to block because in a lot of cases it is out performed by hold the line.

The changes I suggested to monstrous ruin I think are just to help synergize the class mechanic a bit better. Dps skills should consume hate and there should be an incentive to continue spending hate consistently instead of just using it for crimson death and choking fury.

If you look at ibs all of their damaging skills scale with grudge and their buffs are all applied by spending grudge, it doesn't make that much sense to have blackguards use their damaging abilities with hate but still have to maintain high hate if they want to armor debuff so I think this just smooths gameplay out a bit and forces people to actually spend hate consistently and manage it properly. I don't think it is a nerf or a buff really. It gives blackguards a bit quicker uptime for dealing damage by being able to apply a full armor rebuff sooner but is going to cost them hate in order to do so
Sympkiller - 7x Witch Elf
Phibes - 7x Marauder
Playerhater - 6x Blackguard
Phybes - 7x Sorcerer

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#8 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Just spec Enraged Beating, and float Dark protector to whomever needs it. Will be at 100 hate whenever you need it. BG has much easier time building hate than IB does builiding Grudge. Granted you spend it more often, but how often are you spamming armor debuff that you dont have 100 hate for it when necessary?
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germ32
Posts: 62

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#9 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:34 pm

szejoza wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:12 pm 1.5 is still 15% total of an avoidance stat that is the strongest version, other tank classes have 10% extra block at most, some are flat bonuses (like IB one), some depend on stance (BO/SM) and others require ability to land a hit (kotbs), I'd keep it at 10% at max to balance it between tanks. Not that I'm a big fan of that as already Pete said that changing the tactic will hurt defensive 2h BGs.

As for 3. making it scaleable with hate will make it more like others KD, I can't tell if that's a good thing or not but BG comes away as a CC king in SnB with his current 5s KD and knockback to africa. Making it more akin to other classes will make the class more bland imo, also BGs already have an access to Get Down! KD, so giving the possibility of double stun with close to no requirement is too much to have on
Get down requires a 2h if I remember correctly. I just think bgs shouldn't have to waste a 30s cooldown just to be able to use their knockdown and I would give an extra second off the max duration to be able to use it more consistently. Other than those two abilities there is literally no reason to use a shield you can do everything without a shield better than you can do with one except use hold the line.
Sympkiller - 7x Witch Elf
Phibes - 7x Marauder
Playerhater - 6x Blackguard
Phybes - 7x Sorcerer

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szejoza
Posts: 748

Re: [Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound [Close Date: 10th May]

Post#10 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:48 pm

That's why NSP cooldown reduction or removal as you proposed alleviate these issue, want a long KD? get defensive and counter attack, imo it's a fair trade off, no need to make another on demand KD as the rest of the tanks have (let's keep the diversity).
The rest of the suggestions are just unnecessary noise ;)
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