Feedback from a veteran Shadow Warrior + suggestions

[Fenris78]

Viable scout means 2 mandatory AND mastery tactics, to only revovle about Eagle Eye + Festering + Rapid fire + Fell the weak rotation. Not very good tradeoff for the static stance needed, aggravated by the rapid fire, only way to have a decent burst.
It means at least 4-5 seconds standing still to do barely acceptable damage versus soft targets, all this time being not interrupted or dodged at all.

During that timeframe, your target got plenty of time to heal/run/shot you (I'm looking at your Sorc).
But if ideal conditions are fulfilled, you maybe get about 4000 dmg on a single (soft) target (IF every shot crit). Not bad in the absolute, but barely half the amount any decent magus/sorc can do to you in the same timeframe (and at a greater range for magus), with far more safety (insta-cast skill sequences most of the time, meaning plenty of mobility on the opposite side).

Skirmish is an acceptable but barely viable spec atm ; you stil throw wet noodles, saving crits on Lileath (need a guard and heal most of the time) that can be nice, and somehow flanking shot wich is bad too but sometimes acts as a little finisher skill (requiring target to flee away is manageable but annoying, considering low base damage).

Split arrows is a great tactic, but the low damage means you only act as a mass debuffer with pierce defenses (again, 2 tactics to make it works, lowering global damage if we keep the -always mandatory- powerful draw).

Never tried assault spec, considering the tradeoff too much (basically impossible to get viable secondary spec, being scout or skirmish), and the use of shadow leap basically a death trap used in RvR (maybe viable in smallscale).

The SW distant gameplay is summarized (at least from my point of view) by spamming 2 DoTs (Broadhead and Shadow sting, both cleansable and with a too long base duration), some CC (nice kd, less useful snare arrow since we lost snare on Barrage), and trying to finish our target with both rapid fire (if able to stand still) and glass arrow+Flanking shot when possible, hoping no any heal on your target before the hits land...
That and/or mass debuffing with SHA + Split arrows + Pierce defenses spamming.

Stance mechanics
Stance switching is very cumbersome, basically you cannot do a proper rotation with the 5s timer between stances, and to get 1 or 2 barely useful skills (silence and acid arrow mainly) not lasting enough to complete a full rotation, it not worth the hassle, considering alll the support you have to keep up, constantly switching betweent targets to maintain DoTs and avoidances debuff.

Yes, you can actually run skirmish+assault, and switch fast enough to not get insta-gibbed by the mdps running into you (parry rate still bugged), but again it can works in small scale and 1v1, but limited use of Scout stance/skills when running skirmish is imo not worth it.

Class mechanic is cumbersome and do not bring enough to the table, either off than def, not to mention pure dps versus mobility.

Defensive tools
Defensive tools are very limited and outside of single target CC, nothing to run away like any SH or WH can easily do with far more efficiency than a SW could ever dream of.
Returning snare component to Barrage could actually make this skill useful again, both offensively (prevent ennemies fleeting) than defensively (run away from them), and could be used by all specs since it's a 6pts skill.

[Collateral]

In case devs decide to buff lileath arrow, I just want to mention something people seemed to forget. And that's the amazing synergy with LA, ES and pierce defenses (unless sonething changed here that I'm not aware of). It's clear that sw has been nerfed to the ground in warband sense, just like sh. It would be great to see other classes present in wbs other than bw and sorc (with occasional slayer/engi and mara/choppa). But it's not like sw brings absolutely nothing to wb, even with the amount of nerfs it got. Just my little info.

pierce defences doesnt proc on LA. only for your main target

Well that doesn't seem right. But I guess it would be a bit too strong, kinda like chosen was with cripling strikes back in the day.

[jasonX]

In case devs decide to buff lileath arrow, I just want to mention something people seemed to forget. And that's the amazing synergy with LA, ES and pierce defenses (unless sonething changed here that I'm not aware of). It's clear that sw has been nerfed to the ground in warband sense, just like sh. It would be great to see other classes present in wbs other than bw and sorc (with occasional slayer/engi and mara/choppa). But it's not like sw brings absolutely nothing to wb, even with the amount of nerfs it got. Just my little info.

pierce defences doesnt proc on LA. only for your main target

Well that doesn't seem right. But I guess it would be a bit too strong, kinda like chosen was with cripling strikes back in the day.

Yep I think aswell that this would be too strong LA has a good range.

Still you do know that Lileths arrow is bugged and it doesnt take range boost from Powerfull Draw tactic although its a Skirmish Tree skill.

[Valexar]

Just the best Feedback ever on SW

[Fenris78]

Still you do know that Lileths arrow is bugged and it doesnt take range boost from Powerfull Draw tactic although its a Skirmish Tree skill.

Lileath Arrow is a no-range skill, affecting an area of 65ft away.
It's clearly made on purpose to avoid doubling the range with Powerful Draw tactic.

And making Lileath to proc Pierce Defense on all target will probably be too strong, as it will almost completely replace Split Arrows combo.

But I think some adjustments could be done with many tactics/skills :
- Barrage could snare again (maybe 5s 40% snare on hit targets, doesnt looks OP considering the close range, and will act both defensive and offensive, as well as allowing the use with other specs (scout and assault).
Could also be used as a gap closer (strenghtening assault spec).

- Expert skirmisher tactic could use more range, considering the effective range of skirmish (65ft), and the somehow very short range of 30ft abilities in this game (more like 20-25ft compared to 100ft distance, I saw an old bug report on this issue), that 20ft range atm means being almost at melee range.
I think 30-40 feets range for expert skirmisher will gain value to this tactic, since it only benefit to a few skills already, and it tooks 1 very precious tactic slot.

- Vengeance of Nagarythe, as suggested by JasonX, could also be slightly buffed to help armor pen. for all builds, maybe 5-10% more armor penetration on direct damage skills ?
That or removing Acid Arrow stance requirement (a skill that is meant to be used by all spec, and a good debuff for allies too).
SW need to be less Weapon Skill dependant, so it's either getting less opponent armor, or buffing all physical damages.

- The two mandatory tactics for scout stance (Enchanted Arrows and No Quarter) should be fused together, OR damage slightly increased on flame arrow and Festering Arrow to justify the use of one tactic to only boost 2 skills.
Make tactics matter if you want to keep 1-2 mandatory tactics just to make each spec viable.

- Flanking shot could use some more (either) base damage/armor pen/critical damage, considering positioning requirement ; great to finish a very low HP opponent (actually hard to reach more than 1k on crit even on soft targets, with VoN buff), but not useable on charging foes, and not enough firepower to really acts as a finisher (wich is obviously meant to be).
OR change flanking shot +%crit to +crit damage ; SW already run a fair amount of crit chances (Usually up to 55% with bullseye, even more with Init debuff), and dont really need more crit ; adding up to a 60-90% crit damage on a average 650-700 base damage doesnt look too OP, consiering the tradeoff against %crit gain. It could at best bring the skill in range of Fell the Weak crit damage, and useable together with some skill (stance switching AND backtarget) could really bring something better for Scout spec burst, and obviously more punch to skirmish one.

[vanbuinen77]

Sw is fine. Pick the correct targets and know what your class role is.

[DanielWinner]

Sw is fine. Pick the correct targets and know what your class role is.

What is SW role? What targets are correct?

[Acidic]

Sw is fine. Pick the correct targets and know what your class role is.

What is SW role? What targets are correct?

Well as this is a SW thread suppose informing them of the right target is relevant, Not the one with a shield , next more advanced, Not the one with guard and then when not aiming at the tanks go for the squishy that already a bit low.

Role of SW , tricky questions, Not. help your team, not solo kill the world, not look wow I got 4K damage with one shot, think team , think follow assist and focus fire, not solo

[jasonX]

Not the one with a shield , next more advanced, Not the one with guard and then when not aiming at the tanks go for the squishy that already a bit low.

You forgot the following:
Not the healer because he stacks armor and wounds and has detaunt se he will probably outheal your damage only with HOTs
Not the caster/squig because he is running armor tallies and had Deft defender at full level. His healer will spend half the AP healing him than your healer healing you.
Not the 2handed tank because it also has a lot of armor and although he wont block you he will mitigat 76% of your damage (which is the armor cap mitigation)
Not the dps specced Shaman because he can too overheal your damage and his dots will burn you alive in 10-15 seconds while he is draining your AP.
Not the unguarded melee dps because it will too stack armor and toughness and will probably mitigate over 60% of your low tooltip damage.

Ok lets see who is left? What should a skirmish SW target.......

Support classes are healers and tanks. Healers heal and tanks tank. Whats the purpose of a shadow warrior? To be the sidekick of a group? And lets say that we agree that SW is the groups sidekick (like Robin with Batman). Why should that group not replace that SW with a White Lion or a Slayer? I have seen WLs making a target disappear in 3 seconds (Azeyune for the win! Cheers mate! You are da best btw!). I have seen 2handed slayers make detaunting shamans vanish in 4 seconds (Bigkringer, dude you hit like a truck!). Why the heck would someone take into their party or warband a class that does 75% less damage than other classes? To get 8% crit? thats barely 4-8% dmg and healing boost for the party, it is not compared with the 300-400% more damage slayers and WLs do. I would definitely prefer WL+Slayer, Slayer x 2 or WL x 2 instead of any combo with a SW.

Ok assault SWs might have a place in 6man for 6v6. But what should a SW do if his premade 6man is not online? Play alts? Really now?

[adamthelc]

Should give skirmish stealth and vanish.

SWs could get something similar to Armor Piercing Rounds, but I dont feel that bad for them. It's not like they are the only class that deals physical damage against high armor.

Scout should probably be given better damage OR better utility. Enough utility to make having one a desirable use of a spot. Could take away the AoE armor debuff from a RP and give it to scout SWs.