@DEVS: Let me help you. (Not an application)

[kintari]

Hi. I wanted to share with the devs and with the community my experience so far after applying for source code developer and being contacted. It's not my intent to create drama, but it's been a little ... weird.

Before I get in to that though, I want to thank the devs for picking up this project, and for their hard work in bringing it to the state that it is in today -- playable and with a healthy community. It is difficult and at times thankless work, so, thank you.

This next part is not meant to be inflammatory, but at the same time, it has to be said that the devs appear to be overworked and underwater with the amount of things that need attention. The release of Tier 2 is a huge milestone on the horizon, but beyond that, there still seems to be a ton of features that need to be implemented and bugs that need to be fixed. This is normal for a project of this size, and especially one that involves reverse-engineering.

About 2 weeks ago, I submitted an application as a source code developer. I played a lot of WAR and I know software so hey why not? You can see my application here. Dana contacted me, and I set up a local dev environment and began to work on some fixes. Nothing super major, just quality-of-life type things for players, but still good ways for me to get acquainted with the codebase. Some of these fixes will be in the upcoming T2 release. I won't mention what they are, because like I said they aren't huge, and the point of this thread is not to claim credit. At the same time, I think it's a bit strange for my fixes to be released, given that I have not actually been made part of the team. This is where it gets weird ...

The codebase they have me working off of is the WarEmu one on github, which is now about a year out of date. I have not had any contact with any of the RoR developers except for Dana (who has been great). I have not been introduced to them, not had a chance to learn what areas they typically work in, what they are working on right now, or who I should ask which questions. I do not have access to up-to-date source code, which means anything I do is potentially wasted work, if it exists in the newer codebase but not the older one. I do not have access to source control (assuming they use source control), which means I cannot commit changes on my own, nor can I see what changes are being committed by other developers, nor can I get updates to my codebase. Nor am I acknowledged in any way as being involved with development.

It is a really bizarre way to be asked to work, and not a way that I intend to do for long. I thought at first that it was just a trial period kind of thing, but I don't think so now. At least nobody has said as much.

It also makes me question whether or not the RoR team is really looking to expand or not. The applications forum says yes, but my experience says, errr, well, maybe not? I don't know. I understand that maybe there is some history here, some drama in the past? I can understand a bit of paranoia, but if you want the work to get done anytime soon, you need to grow the team with some additional experienced developers.

I'm not looking for the keys to the kingdom, just the tools I need to do a job effectively, or at the very least, knowledge of how long it will take before I can have those tools. Help me out so I can help you. I am willing to pitch in and I don't require any training beyond what is specific to this project. That's huge. You plan on using my fixes, so obviously you see some value there, and yet I have to go about it like a second-class citizen. I don't want to do this, and I won't do it for any longer than is reasonable (as in weeks, not months or years).

Again, I am not looking to create problems. I'm just a guy who loved to play WAR, and would love to help make it playable again. But this is just flat out weird. Can we fix it?

[noisestorm]

/remind me 48h

(genuinely curios here)

[DaScoub]

I will only talk of my opinion, as i'm a (little) part of this huge project.

To be clear : yes, team need restructuration. We are talking about that in the private section. But, this is mainly Max's project, and he's really with his studies right now, and will be more available soon.

Yep, all of the devs are overbooked, and use their free time when they have. None of them is officially a recruiter, but when restructuration will be there, someone will officially be. So, don't be obfuscated if no one officially contacted you...

The last thing to say is that a lot of people wants to be a part of this project, and it's really great. But as far as i know, devs have to be careful about that, because some people only wants to take the code, and make a project on their own. That would be the worst thing for Warhammer (not only for RoR, because in my opinion, as far as Warhammer keeps living, it's the most important thing) if community is divided...
So yes, i understand why all new devs have to work on waremu first. For the point upper, and to evaluate their skill too.

BTW, i hope you'll find a way to be a part of this, if you always want to.

[Azarael]

Opinion follows.

I have always understood that the project is highly guarded with respect to new members because there are trust issues. I recall hearing that in the past, a new team member made off with the source code with the intent of making his own server. I have also heard (directly) one more recent applicant discussing the possibility of doing the same. The risk of this exists for every programmer who joins the project, which is why the coder acceptance rate is so low on RoR. It's possibly even lower for the skilled programmers, who at the very least may cause internal power shifts, as programmers are wont to do.

I did not join this project as a programmer originally, or indeed, ever apply. I was a more active tester than most and was later trusted with source code. I'm sure whole-day testing sessions with nalgol helped with that. If I had applied as a programmer, I believe I would have run into the exact same issues as the other applicants.

I am not sure that these problems (if my opinion is correct) can be so easily resolved. Almost all applicants do not want to jump through hoops to get onto the project, yet without a demonstration of trust, all new programmers would be exposed to the source code and splitting the project would be trivial.

[amputationsaw]

sry for a lil off topic but...

what is the point of "stealing" the code to create an own server? I mean are this people really willing to manage a whole Server project on their own? This doesn't make sense to me though the lil war servers who would appear were really bad, more buggy etc.
and who wants to play on those kinda servers when we have this great one with an existing and ongoing community and development?

[DaScoub]

I know private server domain for quite a long time (more than 10 years) and believe me, a lot of people estimate themself as better than others, and think their own project would be better.

Even if some of them are right, they often don't imagine what maintaining a private server is... And their projects finally closes.

With hughe community games like WoW, it's not really a problem, but for Warhammer, this will be a problem.

[Tesq]

I think that is not only who want's steal the project problem, mind if anyone open another private server promising this and that, and develop faster or give more things but start get donation (money here they cames) and attention.

Ror dev has been a lot catious with the money argument until now. Even if ppl wanted to give donations they still do not take them. Just image that if gw+ea would just make server close they will just do not target 1 but all of the private server, so indiscriminate use of war file could just make the project dead. As a global downside all ppl who just wanna play war could be hit.

Seems more ppl btw talk about this problem , maybe a internal git-hub page for dev only is required to keep up the work.
Just a page for

i work on ----> this

so that ppl feel not wasting time on something that it could alredy potentially being alredy fixed by another one.

[Gerv]

/remind me 48h

(genuinely curios here)

+1 This is a very interesting topic for the future of this game.

[amputationsaw]

I just remember when a few weeks ago someone spamed another WAR website of a new project and everybody just boiled em with ignorance or hate. I think if there ever would be another project which just wants to see profit, this community would siege their forum until it's shutted down

[chaoscode]

As I have been around the emulation community for over 15 years. Ran one of the largest Wow emulated servers on the planet. I understand why they are so selective. I dealt with leaks after leaks after leaks. I am in the same boat you are when it comes to developing. I hesitate to fix anything more then what was asked of me becuase of how old the code is and the lack of seeing what is currently being worked on. What I want to see is the server go moduler so dlls can be handed out and no source. The server population is already pretty low and we don't want to thin it out even more with more servers. I own my own development company and could put quite a bit of hardware and bandwidth behind the server if they needed but they have not so far. Max knows I am here to help if anything happens. Also, I hope the fall damage patch I made will be in the next release keep kids from jumping off mountains. LOL.... Also, I wanted to take the time to say WAAAARRRGGGGG to all the people that make this server. With out you my favoriate game would be dead. My first MMO, my first love. There is never one like it again. I can not wait to see the future and what we as a community do.