Build Grudge on attack

[Everdin]

Is there any chance that IB will get grudge build on attack without tactic like Blackguard?

We are not talking about mirroring a OP ability, it is a very impactful disadvantage in the core mechanic with the need of compensating it with an extra tactic.

[Wiede]

I don't think so...
Reason for: BG needs hate to spend it for skills, IB needs grudge only to improve its skills or use buffs. Not having hate restricts BG in the use of nearly all of his skills... not having grudge just make the IB skills less powerful but doesnt restrict its use and base functionality.

That's a fundamental difference in the mechanic of both classes that's often overlooked. BG needs a way to generate hate by himself else he would be completely useless in its base functionality if not hit. IB doesn't need grudge to use its base functional skills.

Best example: Earthshatter and Wave of Scorn. A BG not beeing able to generate hate can use its slow only when hit. IB can use it anytime but it gets improved with grudge. Other example: crit tactic -> BG needs to spend hate, IB needs to hold grudge. Lorewise pretty cool, just sayin

If you want to have grudge on hit you have to have a cost in form of a tacticslot. Otherwise the advantage of the IB skills working without grudge is too strong, especially because the bonus with grudge for the IB skills often is pretty hefty.

edit: not saying it wouldn't be comfortable to have grudge on hit for IB, but i think, thats the reason it will not happen without a skill overhaul.

[Ekundu01]

Best example: Earthshatter and Wave of Scorn. A BG not beeing able to generate hate can use its slow only when hit. IB can use it anytime but it gets improved with grudge. Other example: crit tactic -> BG needs to spend hate, IB needs to hold grudge. Lorewise pretty cool, just sayin

That is actually a bad example. Both can be used no matter what grudge or hate level you have. Both cost AP not hate or grudge. The only difference is the IB does more damage based on grudge level. And infact quite a few skills are mirrored between the 2 classes to be exactly the same making BG slightly better. Brutal smash and Inspiring attack are both identical improving with the class mechanics, crush the weak and kneecapper are mirrored, stone breaker and horrific wound, grumble an mutter and bolstering anger.

BG has only 6 skills that cost hate to use and 2 of them are at the top of two different trees. IB has 9 skills that cost grudge not all are used depending on the spec but still more to use compared to BG. There is enough differences between the other skills to make each tank unique so allowing IB to build grudge on hit without a tactic would hardly change anything other than quality of life. It is already the most skill capped tank with all the buttons you need to have mapped so having to slot a tactic to help make your class mechanic do better is just adding insult to injury.

[Grock]

Is there any chance that IB will get grudge build on attack without tactic like Blackguard?

We are not talking about mirroring a OP ability, it is a very impactful disadvantage in the core mechanic with the need of compensating it with an extra tactic.

The default tradeoff for not getting Grudge on hit is that you get more Grudges when your Oathfriend gets hit. Not sure if its adequate as i dont play these classes enough.

Wonder how the resource management compares between classes, IB has lots of Grudge-costing buffs to keep up (also Punt costs grudge) while BG seems mostly power-building with just a handful of offensive spenders

[Wiede]

Best example: Earthshatter and Wave of Scorn. A BG not beeing able to generate hate can use its slow only when hit. IB can use it anytime but it gets improved with grudge. Other example: crit tactic -> BG needs to spend hate, IB needs to hold grudge. Lorewise pretty cool, just sayin

That is actually a bad example. Both can be used no matter what grudge or hate level you have.

Oh, you're actually right, my bad. It's a little time since i played my BG.

On the other side i stand with my comment: BG needs more hate to spend for skills than IB for building pressure.

[Everdin]

That's a fundamental difference in the mechanic of both classes that's often overlooked. BG needs a way to generate hate by himself else he would be completely useless in its base functionality if not hit. IB doesn't need grudge to use its base functional skills.

I don't agree with that, IB do not need to spend grudge to make damage, but he has to use Grudge to get himself and his Oathfriend buffed.

- Wave of Scorn doesn't need anything to snare and has a base amount of damage, to get same base amount of damage with earthshatter it needs at least 50 grudge
- Shield of Rage(baseline, all damage) costs half the hate of Runic Shields( specable, castdamage absorb, same value) grudge
- Parry buffs, while not direct compareable, IB needs 15 grudge for 10sec 25% while BG needs nothing for 4 x 100%
- Heavy Blow does has a dot component while Murderous Wrath ignores armor, not direct compareable but both cost nothing (
- Exile do not consume any grudge and with full grudge the range is insane, IB has Away with ye (ok range) that consumes 25 grudge

The "completely usesless part" got me

The "consume" Damage ability on BG are Pitiless Strike, Monstrous Rending and Crimson Death, these are big damage abilitys the IB not even have a relevant pendant

The rest of the abilitys are too far away from compareable
BG
- Ap drain (20 Hate)
- defense reduce (30 Hate)
IB
- Bodyresi + autoattackspeed when get castet (5 Grudge)
- WS buff + AP for oathfriend (15 Grudge)
- Str + Crit buff (15 Grudge)
- Parrybuff (15 Grudge)
- Avenging the Depth (25 Grudge)

And the last one:
- Enraged Beating is first ability in left tree, Builds insane amount of Grudge while doing good damage <- This alone is enough to maintain damage on BG and the the most important thing is it would keep the stack alive even if BG wouldn't have hate on attack

IB has nothing similar
- GBF on IB is last ability in left tree, does more damage, but does not give any grudge

In 1v1 if you do not have the tactic and your target decides to run away you do exact...nothing as an IB

So...may you tell me again what makes the BG useless without the extra hate, and why IB is much more usefull without it?

[Farrul]

The default tradeoff for not getting Grudge on hit is that you get more Grudges when your Oathfriend gets hit. Not sure if its adequate as i dont play these classes enough.

Wonder how the resource management compares between classes, IB has lots of Grudge-costing buffs to keep up (also Punt costs grudge) while BG seems mostly power-building with just a handful of offensive spenders

Sorry but this is not a fair tradeoff at all. Oathfriend starts off stronger than Dark Protector but ends up weaker, it is arguably the slightly better ability.

However ! BG get the tactic (Rising Anger) for free, in addition to a massive hatred gain tool in the channeled attack low in the tree( accessible to any spec).


As detailed pointed out above, the difference isn't enough if we look at important abilities and frequency of use. IB punt requires 25 grudge(!) while BG punt costs only action points. IB oath buffs costs 15 grudge with a short 10 sec duration etc. (main reasons this topic is often revisited, IB resource management is bad indeed and the class is starved on GCD, BG in comparison is mechanically more pleasurable and smooth to play )

TL;DR I don't find any logical reasoning as to why BG gets this tactic for free whilst IB doesn't, the only logic i see unfortunately is that BG is a newer addition to the game and therefore mechanically improved, indeed i agree with the OP regarding this imbalance.

[ashton007]

I actually play both of these tanks my BG is 80 IB almost 70, and to be Frank the grudge mechanic feels easily 3x as bad. The hate and grudge spending is actually similar. What I do not get is that the BG already has enraged beating, but then to top it off gets the flat 5 per hit and on being hit TOO with no mf tactic cost, the difference in damage is that the BG actually hits harder both in ST and AoE. But to top it off BG also have the better utility. There’s a lot of times where I’m not getting hit and build no grudges and can basically do nothing. Take for example stage 2 in city (core part of this game) IB falls behind and can’t do dmg without slotting rising anger, and even with rising anger it takes 20 seconds to reach max grudge, really if they aren’t going to give us the tactic passively they need to buff it to 10-15grudge.

[SOcial]

That's a fundamental difference in the mechanic of both classes that's often overlooked. BG needs a way to generate hate by himself else he would be completely useless in its base functionality if not hit. IB doesn't need grudge to use its base functional skills.

I don't agree with that, IB do not need to spend grudge to make damage, but he has to use Grudge to get himself and his Oathfriend buffed.

- Wave of Scorn doesn't need anything to snare and has a base amount of damage, to get same base amount of damage with earthshatter it needs at least 50 grudge
- Shield of Rage(baseline, all damage) costs half the hate of Runic Shields( specable, castdamage absorb, same value) grudge
- Parry buffs, while not direct compareable, IB needs 15 grudge for 10sec 25% while BG needs nothing for 4 x 100%
- Heavy Blow does has a dot component while Murderous Wrath ignores armor, not direct compareable but both cost nothing (
- Exile do not consume any grudge and with full grudge the range is insane, IB has Away with ye (ok range) that consumes 25 grudge

The "completely usesless part" got me

The "consume" Damage ability on BG are Pitiless Strike, Monstrous Rending and Crimson Death, these are big damage abilitys the IB not even have a relevant pendant

The rest of the abilitys are too far away from compareable
BG
- Ap drain (20 Hate)
- defense reduce (30 Hate)
IB
- Bodyresi + autoattackspeed when get castet (5 Grudge)
- WS buff + AP for oathfriend (15 Grudge)
- Str + Crit buff (15 Grudge)
- Parrybuff (15 Grudge)
- Avenging the Depth (25 Grudge)

And the last one:
- Enraged Beating is first ability in left tree, Builds insane amount of Grudge while doing good damage <- This alone is enough to maintain damage on BG and the the most important thing is it would keep the stack alive even if BG wouldn't have hate on attack

IB has nothing similar
- GBF on IB is last ability in left tree, does more damage, but does not give any grudge

In 1v1 if you do not have the tactic and your target decides to run away you do exact...nothing as an IB

So...may you tell me again what makes the BG useless without the extra hate, and why IB is much more usefull without it?

Pretty much all this and i would even add that the crit buff on BG is more reliable than the one on IB, after playing a full off sov IB and a full warlord BG ... BG feels ten time better to play.

[SOcial]

I actually play both of these tanks my BG is 80 IB almost 70, and to be Frank the grudge mechanic feels easily 3x as bad. The hate and grudge spending is actually similar. What I do not get is that the BG already has enraged beating, but then to top it off gets the flat 5 per hit and on being hit TOO with no mf tactic cost, the difference in damage is that the BG actually hits harder both in ST and AoE. But to top it off BG also have the better utility. There’s a lot of times where I’m not getting hit and build no grudges and can basically do nothing. Take for example stage 2 in city (core part of this game) IB falls behind and can’t do dmg without slotting rising anger, and even with rising anger it takes 20 seconds to reach max grudge, really if they aren’t going to give us the tactic passively they need to buff it to 10-15grudge.

To be completly true, while i'll agree that IB feels worse than BG, IB has theorically more damage potential in ST than BG, but since it would need to be above 80 grudge all the time you're hitting ... it doesnt happen