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[all] Toughness Question

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Monteaux
Posts: 28

[all] Toughness Question

Post#1 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:05 pm

I've heard that Toughness won't work in PvE and only in PvP....is there an official statment about that? Caus mobs could be written with dps too and Toughness reduces dps, so it could worked in PvE also.
P.e. if i used a Tank for farming mats i can use the same gear as in Pvp - if Toughness will work fine. If Toughness won't work i've to collect a farming gear AND a Pvp gear. So i've looking for some official statments about Toughness and the mechanics in Pve.

Cause i've won't salv my drop gear for faming if i've need it.

Ty for answer and guidance. :?:

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yhani
Posts: 109

Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#2 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:30 pm

this is not official information but afaik:
toughness reduce damage-bonus (from strength/ballistic/intelligence) so it cant reduce anything if monster got no stats like that.
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Omegus
Posts: 1530

Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#3 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:25 pm

Monteaux wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:05 pm I've heard that Toughness won't work in PvE and only in PvP....is there an official statment about that? Caus mobs could be written with dps too and Toughness reduces dps, so it could worked in PvE also.
P.e. if i used a Tank for farming mats i can use the same gear as in Pvp - if Toughness will work fine. If Toughness won't work i've to collect a farming gear AND a Pvp gear. So i've looking for some official statments about Toughness and the mechanics in Pve.

Cause i've won't salv my drop gear for faming if i've need it.

Ty for answer and guidance. :?:
There's 3 things that make up the initial damage from an attack:

1) base damage. Just a fixed number to start things off.

2) contribution from the "DPS bonus" (which is determined by strength/ballistic skill/intelligence and their respective power stats for extra damage). Using melee as an example so I can stop typing strength/ballistic skill/intelligence, the melee DPS bonus is (strength + melee power) / 5. Then, each attack has it's own multiplier to this bonus. Typically this bonus is based on GCD or cast time. Single target direct damage usually has a multipleir of 1.5 to represent the attack taking 1.5 seconds (the global cooldown). DoTs and AOEs usually have lower multipliers.

3) weapon DPS contribution for ranged and melee only. This may or many not be used for NPCs.

Damage sources 1, 2, and 3 are added together to form the initial damageo of the attack.

Where toughness comes into play is in step 2. Much like the melee DPS bonus is (strenth + melee power) / 5, the DPS reduction from toughness is (toughness + fortitude) / 5. The DPS reduction is then subtracted from the DPS bonus, and THEN the ability's DPS multiplier is applied to whatever is left. This means that if an ability's damage scales high with strength, then it also means that the defender's toughness will provide a significant damage reduction.

Now we get to NPCs. From what it seems, NPC attacks are typically implemented as having very high base damage, high armour penetration and little-to-no scaling from the NPC's strength stat (or ballistic skill/intelligence). The side effect of this means that toughness provides little-to-no damage reduction. This is why PVE tanks typically spec for wounds and armour (and anti-crit) for dungeon runs, as NPC damage seems to be high base damage and high armour penetration.

For farming basic NPCs for materials a tank really doesn't need to worry about stacking armour or toughness tbh as the NPCs are trivial. The calculations above only become an issue during dungeons where the NPCs are all champions, heroes and lords.


edit: example with an NPC of 1000 strength and a tank of 900 toughness. Melee power and fortitude are 0

1) Base damage: 3000 (boss-level damage). For comparison's sake, a regular player attack might be 5-10% of this.
2) DPS bonus: 1000 / 5 = 200 DPS. DPS reduction: 900 / 5 = 180 DPS reduction. Overall DPS bonus: 200 - 180 = 20. This NPC's attack has a DPS bonus multiplier of 1.5 (I'm feeling generous) which gives 30 bonus damage.
3) Weapon DPS: assuming 0 to make things easier:

Final damage: 3000 + 30 +0 = 3030.

If the tank's toughness was 0 then the final damage would've been 3000 + 300 + 0 = 3300. The 900 toughness provided a minor reduction but nothing significant enough to keep you alive considering the base damage.
Last edited by Omegus on Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rydiak
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Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#4 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:33 pm

Well said, Zomega. And OP feel free to play around with my damage calculator to get a feeling for how all the variables work together.
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Monteaux
Posts: 28

Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#5 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:25 am

So i've to collect 2 types of armor (pve/pvp) to be effectiv in both gameparts, toughness for pvp and wounds/armor for pve or is wounds/armor still the best to socket?

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Rydiak
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Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#6 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:20 am

You will easily hit 4k+ armor wearing Heavy armor as a tank for the mitigation needed in PvE, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Avoidance is more important anyways when it comes to being defensive against bosses, so Parry and Block.
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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#7 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:17 am

in reality mobs by some years should have stats, so toughness work; point is boss dmg is so high toughness direct reduction do too few ( ex: 1050 remove 210 dmg but boss hit for 3k each hit), you need a % based reduction, so resistences, armor or hardly concession.
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nocturnalguest
Posts: 637

Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#8 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:44 am

Tesq wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:17 am in reality mobs by some years should have stats, so toughness work; point is boss dmg is so high toughness direct reduction do too few ( ex: 1050 remove 210 dmg but boss hit for 3k each hit), you need a % based reduction, so resistences, armor or hardly concession.
And HC being most valuable PvE investment for a tank. Mobs do have 5% chance to crit afaik, so FS2 (or 3 for different gear setups) in toptier gear will bring you around -5 totally negating the chance to be crit so:
-crit of -5% > avoidance > rest.

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Tesq
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Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#9 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 pm

nocturnalguest wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:44 am
Tesq wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:17 am in reality mobs by some years should have stats, so toughness work; point is boss dmg is so high toughness direct reduction do too few ( ex: 1050 remove 210 dmg but boss hit for 3k each hit), you need a % based reduction, so resistences, armor or hardly concession.
And HC being most valuable PvE investment for a tank. Mobs do have 5% chance to crit afaik, so FS2 (or 3 for different gear setups) in toptier gear will bring you around -5 totally negating the chance to be crit so:
-crit of -5% > avoidance > rest.
some bosses may have more* chance to crit.
Last edited by Tesq on Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Omegus
Posts: 1530

Re: [all] Toughness Question

Post#10 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:55 pm

Monteaux wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:25 am So i've to collect 2 types of armor (pve/pvp) to be effectiv in both gameparts, toughness for pvp and wounds/armor for pve or is wounds/armor still the best to socket?
For a fresh R40 tank you'll want as much armour as possible especially if tryin to solo tank dungeons. An end-game tank usually has good enough mitigation from multiple sources (end game gear has better armour stats, more block/parry, etc) that armour talis aren't really needed.

Having multiple sets of gear in general isn't a bad thing though. Make use of that bank space!
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