For the love of god give WH a snare

[Sever1n]

Realising those tiny moments and dif is core to fixing balance, it should be surgically changed and given playerbase or atleast mains to say a word to prevent bad ones. Thats why last patch was complete disaster, all those extremes that give order some fun was deleted ( rampage/pounce+pet/undefFester+overalnerf to sw that was underperforming/ WoDS/ wh def spec nerf) and game instantly tuned in chopageddon tnx to 1 new button they have. Adding snare+pounce for WE was a miracle for WEs against order backline classes that dont have antisnares exept morales, and hited hard on order again. But amount of desinformation in this place is huge, so WEs now demand finishers, Sorks was demanding selfknockbacks, etc. Basically everything that creates any discomfort for destro like in BHA case instantly "fixed", but for some reason covenant, gtdc, marauder 200km pull trick, regen WE spec and other FUN stuff for destro still untouched. Thats why this topics will be in uneding fiesta of acusations in lie, and if dont devs dont read then they even have zero sense.

[Bozzax]

RvR Kills 0h to 23h over the last 5 days
Total Kills: Order: 40550 Destruction: 34954

RoR T2+ Population Balance (homepage) 0h to 23h over the last 5 days Order 49.2% Destruction 50.8%

Btw I mostly play order back lines these days

My personal experience is that dok snare is fluff and shamans are weaker then ams, zele, rps, dok and and wp

We are easy to detaunt and ignore you really should try play both sides

[knick]

Stealth classes are the most overtuned classes in RoR but WH in particular is out of mind. No other class can bring this amount of gadgets on the battlefield than a WH/WE can and no other class benefits more from the RoR changes than this two.
There are so much outstanding stuff like Sudden accusations,Shroud of Magnus, Repel Blasphemy + all the new stuff.
I mean no class should have a 100% whatever chance. This is moral stuff and WH can have it from the beginning of each battle.

Sorry but WH must have some weaknesses like every other class have and some tuning down on stealth classes would be a good thing.

[Sever1n]

Both def wh and def we was beyound broken in solo play. After patch devs cut like 1/3 healling from bullets and im not sure how strong nerfed armorpen for the absopam. 90% of wh still in this spec. Glass cannon build with bal/exit not that op in terms of survival, and both WE/WH is kinda balanced in this specs (but for some reason WE want more dmg, complaining how they dont have finishers). Thats why im interested in numbers of burst WE can perform, coz i saw very interesting numbers in 1 gcd from pierce armor+wb, and other stuff.

[Fenris78]

Best part of cource is existing of covenant of celerity, that fix any problems with snares for destro side. Oh we also forgetting about Gork sez stop that punish chasing shams, racial autodetaunts.... WEs dint need to deal with any of problems WH have because..... BALANCE

Lets see now. How covenant of celerity helps WE which usually isn't teamed with dok? How is Gork sez stop so much better than 3600 m1 absorb on AM, when you can avoid Gork sez stop by just stopping for 2 sec, while there is no way to avoid AM absorb? How is gobba racial detaunt is better than AM's aoe detaunt which lasts for 10 sec out of every 15 (Run Between Worlds)?

"WEs dint need to deal with any of problems WH have because"- enlighten me, which problems exactly? Because from other hand I can see several things which WH has unlike WE- for example armor debuff which WE doesn't has, or ability to build mechanic points outside of combat/ melee range which again WE doesn't has.

- CoC is snaring people around, your dont need a WE to be in your party, only someone out of 6 ppl proccing CoC on WE target. Free snare for everyone.
Exactly like the Magus Aoe Spirit debuff, it benefits to all sorc around.

- M1 from AM doesnt prevent you to be beaten to death by the WE sticking to you, or any DPS for that matters. Very low Toughness also means your bubble got lesser value than one of a tank, for instance.

- That's those 2s wich make the difference between death and escape.
2s of immobility = 1 kd, and it's a 100ft kd in this case. Now the shaman can gain 2s more of free kiting, wich is usually enough to deter and completely neuter any WH/mDPS because they will just die chasing, and dont have any chance of getting close of shaman again. The ultimate kiting tool.
And if all of that arent enough, you have flee, racial flee, and slow puddle. And after that a bump wich is about unavoidable and also snaring from 30ft AoE.

- Shaman get the exact same AoE detaunt than AM, the CORE skill, but the also got a ST one with "added" 5% disrupt wich AM doesnt have (what a coincidence). A racial tactic detaunt. And 240 toughness buff with instacast no cd skill. All of that stacking onto eachother.


About WH, since actually the class doesnt get any snare outside of the conditional (and easily avoidable) ranged skill, it needs at the very least a gap closer, or a better immobilizer skill (one like Sham M1 for instance, able to deal REAL damage to moving targets).

Otherwise, all it takes to avoid getting killed/chased by any WH is one button instacast skill. And it's sad for such an archetype.

[Ysaran]

Shaman get the exact same AoE detaunt than AM, the CORE skill, but the also got a ST one with "added" 5% disrupt wich AM doesnt have (what a coincidence). A racial tactic detaunt. And 240 toughness buff with instacast no cd skill. All of that stacking onto eachother.

Nope. Both AM and Shaman have 2 detaunts. One single target and one AoE. The ST detaunt is teh same for both classes. The difference is that while Shaman's AoE detaunt gives you 5% disrupt (wich is laughable considering that Deft Defender is a very common choice of RR points and that with the recent change to avoidances you get almost 21% disrupt from willpower), AM's AoE detaunt give you 5s while you don't get set back during casting, which is 3 casts of Boon of Hysh (the big ST heal). AM also have the tactic "Run Between Worlds" which decreses the CD of the AoE detaunt from 30s to 15s. Which means that you have a 66% uptime AoE damage reduction and 33% setback immunity. Man, that 5% disrupt on Shaman surely is OP...

Also, Shaman don't have a mirror of "Run Between Worlds". Well, you actually have one, but it decrese the CD of the AoE punt from 60s to 20s. This is kind of pointless in party/wb since it will be your tank that punt/CC whoever is attackking you, while in solo you have better tactic to slot.

Racial detaunt is actually pretty good, and that's fine as it is. AM also have very good racial tactics (+10% disrupt strikethrough and the Spit DoT), exlusive moral (Blinding Light, crazy strong in wb setting) and and exlusive tactic (AoE AP drain, Wild Healing and Morale pump just to name a few).

The 240 toughness bonus is a moot point. Almost no one use it, FodG (and Energy of Vaul on AM) is just better from a healing point of view. The toughness bonus heal roughly 1500hp in 10s on ST, while FodG heals a minimum of 2800hp in 10s (without considering the lifetap) to up to 24 ppl. And let's not talk about the AP cost of the two skills. Overall, they are not even comparable.

Honestly, it is clear that you don't know anything about Shaman/AM. You wrote that AM have only one detaunt, lol. You should at least check the Career Builder before talking about classes you are not competent.

[knick]

it needs at the very least a gap closer, or a better immobilizer skill (one like Sham M1 for instance, able to deal REAL damage to moving targets).

You mean immobilizer like Sudden Accusation (which is unique to WH/WE as ability) and can do alot of dmg if you ignoring it or a gap closer like range KD with dragon gun or a charge with Sanctified Oil.

Oh he has it all already. My bad

Sometimes i think people loosing their mind if they talk about class balance in the forum. Completely out of any reason.

[Fenris78]

it needs at the very least a gap closer, or a better immobilizer skill (one like Sham M1 for instance, able to deal REAL damage to moving targets).

You mean immobilizer like Sudden Accusation (which is unique to WH/WE as ability) and can do alot of dmg if you ignoring it or a gap closer like range KD with dragon gun or a charge with Sanctified Oil.

Oh he has it all already. My bad

Sometimes i think people loosing their mind if they talk about class balance in the forum. Completely out of any reason.

Sudden Accusation (or the WE equivalent) never killed anyone nor prevented them to move, they do mediocre damage. It's used because no better option on WE (or if she doesnt have to use the jump as opener), and WH is mostly forced to use armor debuff because no gap closer, unless target is already on melee range.

Range KD is the same for WE but you already knew it, as well as the speed increase + stealth.

The difference is that WH, unlike WE, doesnt get a 30ft gap closer + snare, nor a speed increase tactic to catch targets.
That is the main issue discussed here, but people looks like too busy pointing out mirrored tools to see the differences in toolkit when it comes to catch targets.

Try to play WH and tell me it's harder to catch Order healers than catching Destro healers...

[Paxsanarion]

Just mirror every single class in the game ……exactly. Figure out what you want each archetype and class to be able to do and then mirror it exactly. Balance done……then just focus on being a good player and having fun. No bias worries. Then devs can focus on making RVR fun

[knick]

it needs at the very least a gap closer, or a better immobilizer skill (one like Sham M1 for instance, able to deal REAL damage to moving targets).

You mean immobilizer like Sudden Accusation (which is unique to WH/WE as ability) and can do alot of dmg if you ignoring it or a gap closer like range KD with dragon gun or a charge with Sanctified Oil.

Oh he has it all already. My bad

Sometimes i think people loosing their mind if they talk about class balance in the forum. Completely out of any reason.

Sudden Accusation (or the WE equivalent) never killed anyone nor prevented them to move, they do mediocre damage. It's used because no better option on WE (or if she doesnt have to use the jump as opener), and WH is mostly forced to use armor debuff because no gap closer, unless target is already on melee range.

Range KD is the same for WE but you already knew it, as well as the speed increase + stealth.

The difference is that WH, unlike WE, doesnt get a 30ft gap closer + snare, nor a speed increase tactic to catch targets.
That is the main issue discussed here, but people looks like too busy pointing out mirrored tools to see the differences in toolkit when it comes to catch targets.

Try to play WH and tell me it's harder to catch Order healers than catching Destro healers...

First of all this topic is about a snare for WH and not WH vs WE comparison. In the original post is no word about WE. Only because you force the discussion in this direction dosen mean this topic is about.

Second WE and WH are not mirrowed. This discussion will never get old. But hey the grass is always greener on the other side isn't it?
WE has abilities WH doesnt have and other way around.

People want anything combined in their own class is the reason why most balance suggestions in this forum cant be taken seriously.

Last i play WH by myself but no WE
Cant confirm any of your claims.