Bringing tanks in line: BG The Exception

[RaginPower]

From my understanding of the published goal for balancing tanks, the idea was to bring core tanking mechanics in line across the board. At least that was why SM/BO got their punts and SM lost their unique undefendable SnB punt. So let's look at investments and payouts of KD/Punts.

Punt investment
SM/BO received ST punts that also require a tactic. SM,BO,Chosen,kotbs all require a tactic slotted for an adequate punt. BG/IB have zero investment and the 10s cooldown that comes with tactic for other classes.

Now onto distance.
SM/BO were gifted weakest punt.
Kotbs/chosen punts to the moon. IB is around here too.
Blackguard is the exception. 90% hate sends the target outa the solar system.

Knockdowns
Blackguard 3-5 sec knockdown was even indirectly buffed with Dwarf Stoutness of Stone nerf. 3 sec is standard for 5 tanks, and 4 tanks have to spec 10 mastery points. BG? Just hate.

Defenders of BG will say 90% hate is a huge investment, but its not with proper usage. In small scale the punt or kd is gamechanging. City BG MA's just have to kd target to secure kill. BG don't kd. They put you to sleep. In 6v6 BG punt means the ledge across the map might as well be 5 ft away yet safe for Destro. Its also practically necessary for tanks to drop moral and flee just to recover from being punted. Thats IF terrain isn't involved.

I just want their kd/punt to be in line with other tanks. It could just cost a flat amount, like their IB counterpart, and be good. Balanced even.

[trh382]

I dont know enough about tank balance to comment on this concern.

However, the asymmetric BG punt has the consequence of making certain scenarios really ugly for everyone. I think we see this some SC weekends with dead Destro queues because order gets sick of queueing into BGs that can one shot them from 3/4 of the map with a punt.

If the BG punt is necessary for game balance on other axis - there could be some adjustments to such SCs like automatic punts back up from the pit so that the BG has a mega CC instead of an insta kill.

[Aluviya]

From my understanding of the published goal for balancing tanks, the idea was to bring core tanking mechanics in line across the board. At least that was why SM/BO got their punts and SM lost their unique undefendable SnB punt. So let's look at investments and payouts of KD/Punts.

Punt investment
SM/BO received ST punts that also require a tactic. SM,BO,Chosen,kotbs all require a tactic slotted for an adequate punt. BG/IB have zero investment and the 10s cooldown that comes with tactic for other classes.

Now onto distance.
SM/BO were gifted weakest punt.
Kotbs/chosen punts to the moon. IB is around here too.
Blackguard is the exception. 90% hate sends the target outa the solar system. Hate is all thats required. 0 build investment.

Knockdowns
Blackguard 3-5 sec knockdown was even indirectly buffed with Dwarf Stoutness of Stone nerf. 3 sec is standard for 5 tanks, and 4 tanks have to spec 10 mastery points. BG? Just hate.

Defenders of BG will say 90% hate is a huge investment, but its not with proper usage. In small scale the punt or kd is gamechanging. City BG MA's just have to kd target to secure kill. BG don't kd. They put you to sleep. In 6v6 BG punt means the ledge across the map might as well be 5 ft away yet safe for Destro. Its also practically necessary for tanks to drop moral and flee just to recover from being punted. Thats IF terrain isn't involved.

I just want their kd/punt to be in line with other tanks. It could just cost a flat amount, like their IB counterpart, and be good. Balanced even.

I agree with you. From the limited perspective of a healer and someone who primarily engages in small-scale PvP, ensuring consistency in punt values and knockdown durations among tank classes is essential for maintaining fairness and coherence in gameplay mechanics. While I understand that some players appreciate versatility across different realms and prefer that counterpart classes aren't exact mirrors of each other, it's important to recognize that the balance of crowd control in the game relies on a delicate equilibrium. Allowing the Blackguard to possess a significantly stronger punt without requiring adequate investment or the Swordmaster having a delay on the knockdown ability could upset this balance and lead to unfair advantages. The timing of these abilities' availability also plays a crucial role. For instance, the Ironbreaker has the option of utilizing knockdowns and punts as early as Tier 1, while other classes receive them later on.

Regarding the recent adjustments to the addition of auto-attack buffs and their interaction with the punt ability, I find myself somewhat uncertain about their justification from the perspective of balance, especially as certain classes that are already not exactly balanced (like Choppa and Slayer) may benefit disproportionately. I can't help but wonder if both tank types, Swordmasters and Black Orcs, could utilize entirely different punt abilities, such as a vertical punt, to introduce a unique element into their gameplay without directly comparing them to other tank types. This approach could potentially enrich the depth and variety of tanking strategies while ensuring balance across different tank classes.

[tazdingo]

BG's punt is so low arc it can be hard to achieve anything with it sometimes, on several maps its effectively the worst because you can only send the target so far in any direction before hitting something.

chosen, knight, bo and sm all require a tactic. IB has 10 sec CD by default and really nice arc but can struggle to find the grudge to use it. BG needs hate, which is easier to get than grudge, but needs way more hate than the IB needs grudge and the arc is abysmal

yeah on some maps like the 6v6 IC sc a BG who can aim a punt is a nightmare but most of the time it's no way near that bad. if someone could give other specific examples where BG's punt is an issue i'd be interested to hear but from memory I can't think of many. an example of the contrary is that an IB can lob a target off of ekrund mid with a perfectly placed punt whilst BG can do basically nothing here

[RaginPower]

IB need 25 grudge to punt, why is that a struggle with a proper oath friend? I have never understood this but its a common opinion.

Could you elaborate on why its easier to generate hate over grudge?

Back to BG. 6v6s don't generally happen over objectives. I've rarely done a serious 6v6 around real terrain obstacles, but maybe thats my lack of experience.

The IC sc is the obvious culprit, but most scs have punt hazards and they come from being punted to a lower level. BG has enough vertical to clear out the midpoint on wall of ekrund. That is basically a standard for the vertical imo.

Chosen/KotBS do have more vertical, but they also have identical punts.

Chosen will be in group with BG. So either chosen punts tank1 and BG knocks down tank2. Or the other way around. Both choices are unbalanced because of BG.

[Detangler]

IB need 25 grudge to punt, why is that a struggle with a proper oath friend? I have never understood this but its a common opinion.

Could you elaborate on why its easier to generate hate over grudge?

Back to BG. 6v6s don't generally happen over objectives. I've rarely done a serious 6v6 around real terrain obstacles, but maybe thats my lack of experience.

The IC sc is the obvious culprit, but most scs have punt hazards and they come from being punted to a lower level. BG has enough vertical to clear out the midpoint on wall of ekrund. That is basically a standard for the vertical imo.

Chosen/KotBS do have more vertical, but they also have identical punts.

Chosen will be in group with BG. So either chosen punts tank1 and BG knocks down tank2. Or the other way around. Both choices are unbalanced because of BG.

BG has enraged beating to generate hate. IB can only generate 5 grudge per cooldown thanks to a stealth change/bug by the devs with the latest balance patch. Add in all theother buffs that require grudge, and you are constantly starved for grudge without slotting 1-2 tactics purely to increase your grudge building, one of which BG gets the equivalent for free (build grudge on attack).

[GONDOR]

IB need 25 grudge to punt, why is that a struggle with a proper oath friend? I have never understood this but its a common opinion.

Could you elaborate on why its easier to generate hate over grudge?

Back to BG. 6v6s don't generally happen over objectives. I've rarely done a serious 6v6 around real terrain obstacles, but maybe thats my lack of experience.

The IC sc is the obvious culprit, but most scs have punt hazards and they come from being punted to a lower level. BG has enough vertical to clear out the midpoint on wall of ekrund. That is basically a standard for the vertical imo.

Chosen/KotBS do have more vertical, but they also have identical punts.

Chosen will be in group with BG. So either chosen punts tank1 and BG knocks down tank2. Or the other way around. Both choices are unbalanced because of BG.

Offensive and defensive abilities scale with Grudge, like hate, but it's more extreme for IB - there are more skills for IB that ramp, and they are very dependent on the ramp. 25 Grudge at the start of a fight is a lot, you can't come on and "just punt" - imagine if Exile cost 25/30 hatred to use. You'd have to use Enraged Beating first so you can use it, and then the follow-up consequences of lessening your skill efficiency being pushed down a bracket.

Currently Ironbreaker Grudge is tied to GCD, so if your Oathfriend is being hit, it's from 4.5 to 7.5 seconds to generate the grudge from just oathfriend. That applies for every IB buff too - there's a lot of contest for Grudge in the early stages of a fight, it takes around 20-30 seconds to having the rotation going at full capability. With how TTK is atm, fights can be over and done by then, or key windows are missed etc. It just lends itself to clunkiness.

As for Hate vs Grudge generation - it's the difference between active and passive generation. Hate is active - you choose to do things; use skills, hit people, etc, to gain it. You can use Enraged Beating (as 2h) to help improve management - have a spender or scaler? Beating in the rotation to smooth it out.

Grudge is very passive; your opponent has to do something, and then you get it. You don't have any direct control over how you generate your class resource; there is no real gameplay engagement. You can stand in front of someone, and they can choose to not hit you - then what do you do?

You'll often hear people say "Rising Anger" or "Dwarven Riposte" but a tactic shouldn't be necessary to make the core mechanic of a class playable or usefully functional. Dwarven Riposte is a bit of a bogeyman - it was used in the past by balance team members to say "Grudge is fine because Dwarven Riposte exists", which is wild; I don't know how an overperforming tactic is a suitable bandaid a weak core mechanic.

[tazdingo]

as the previous 2 posts said

my main point is that I think replacing exile with any other punt would be a buff. it's a stupid ability on some of the new flat maps but on most of the classic scs that have more natural terrain more often than not the puntee gets stopped by a slight bump in the floor

sometimes it might feel oppressive because it sends you so far but just think it that was a knight/chosen would i not also have been sent off this cliff? the threat of a punt makes it so you can't just ignore a tank being in your face even if his dmg isn't pressure, you have to kite or move relative to him or risk giving him an easy shot to take you out of the fight for a bit

here i drew a crappy picture to highlight what i mean. by hitting a much more difficult shot than a knight/chosen superpunt, you're achieving basically the same thing

https://ibb.co/NTmRPxK

6v6 guys might have their own opinion because time out of guard range is all that matters

[Nekkma]

I dislike the idea to bring them "in line" to begin with. I advocated for SM/BO to get a usable ST punt as I consider that a core tank skill. I find it rather lazy to carbon copy the design with tactic to make it usable (it is also terrible design to have an ability basically not even function without additional investment). I would have prefered to make it something unique like undefendable but with 1 min cd or something. Let BG keep it's cool and unique things.

[nonfactor]

ST Punt is a core tank ability like Guard and should be unified among all the classes.