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Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

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Grognir
Posts: 44

Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#1 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:34 pm

Those last days with my order warband, we had the feeling that our destro opponents were able to get their Moral 2 (at least) much faster than us. It was more particularly obvious during city attack or defense, since you have removed the possibility to build moral against NPC : Some destro warband dropped their M2 in an average estimation of 10s (!) after an impact, while we had to wait approximatively 30s for those still alive to get our M2.

So we investigate deeper this subject, considering tactics and ability impacting moral (and not considering moral itself has the matter is to get them) and here is the picture:

Image

For the “balanced” comparison:
  • 2 Destro DPS have a moral drain (Witch Elf, Marauder), and 2 order DPS have a moral drain (Swordmaster and Witch hunter)
  • 1 DPS (Withch Elf) have group moral pump, and 1 order DPS has group moral pump (Witch hunter)
And that’s it!

Now see the difference between side:
  • 1 Destro healers (shaman) have group moral pump, whereas 1 order heal (Archmage) has a single target moral pump
  • 5 Destro characters have a personal moral pump (Zealot, Chosen, Black orc, Sorcerer, squig herder), whereas 2 order DPS have a personal moral pump (Bright Wizard, White Lion)
  • 1 destro DPS has a moral block for 5s (Marauder), nothing similar on order side
Speaking only about the heals, the difference is huge all the more as you have removed the AOE moral drain from Rune Priest’s concussive rune. Seriously there is no way we can match a specialized moral warband as we met those days. I strongly recommend all destro to play massively those tactics and abilities to show you that there is a real balancing issue between sides.

You should consider this topic as first priority as it is killing the game especially in Cities.
Last edited by Grognir on Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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StrongUn
Posts: 223

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#2 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:40 pm

destro OP!!! nerf destro!!!
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Vayra
Posts: 568

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#3 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:40 pm

Perfect mirroring has never been the goal of this game. I know this used to be balanced by order having better morales in general (for example Sorc did not have a 1200 aoe m2), and they often have better dps or healing than the destro mirrors (sorc/bw, dok/wp come to mind) outside of morales.

Also, you've used the wrong tactic for Zealot in your image, you're not showing a group morale pump, you're showing a self-pump (from Sorc, not sure if Zealot has the same tactic).
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Grognir
Posts: 44

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#4 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:44 pm

Vayra wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:40 pm
Perfect mirroring has never been the goal of this game. I know this used to be balanced by order having better morales in general (for example Sorc did not have a 1200 aoe m2), and they often have better dps or healing than the destro mirrors (sorc/bw, dok/wp come to mind) outside of morales.

Also, you've used the wrong tactic for Zealot in your image, you're not showing a group morale pump, you're showing a self-pump (from Sorc, not sure if Zealot has the same tactic).
Exact you are right, I correct my post for Zealot.

My meaning is not to mirror, but to balance. For exemple the moral drain on Rune Priest was here to balance the shamy moral pump, so bad it has been removed!
Last edited by Grognir on Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 651

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#5 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:46 pm

Grognir wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:34 pm
Those last days with my order warband, we had the feeling that our destro opponents were able to get their Moral 2 (at least) much faster than us. It was more particularly obvious during city attack or defense, since you have removed the possibility to build moral against NPC : Some destro warband dropped their M2 in an average estimation of 10s (!) after an impact, while we had to wait approximatively 30s for those still alive to get our M2.

So we investigate deeper this subject, considering tactics and ability impacting moral (and not considering moral itself has the matter is to get them) and here is the picture:

Image

For the “balanced” comparison:
  • 2 Destro DPS have a moral drain (Witch Elf, Marauder), and 2 order DPS have a moral drain (Swordmaster and Witch hunter)
  • 1 DPS (Withch Elf) have group moral pump, and 1 order DPS has group moral pump (Witch hunter)
And that’s it!

Now see the difference between side:
  • 2 Destro healers (zealot, shaman) have group moral pump, whereas 1 heal (Archmage) has a single target moral pump
  • 4 Destro characters have a personal moral pump (Chosen, Black orc, Sorcerer, squig herder), whereas 2 order DPS have a personal moral pump (Bright Wizard, White Lion)
  • 1 destro DPS has a moral block for 5s (Marauder), nothing similar on order side
Speaking only about the heals, the difference is insane all the more as you have removed the AOE moral drain from Rune Priest’s concussive rune. Seriously there is no way we can match a specialized moral warband as we met those days. I strongly recommend all destro to play massively those tactics and abilities to show you that there is a real balancing issue between sides.

You should consider this topic as first priority as it is killing the game especially in Cities.
Its a thing

the main issue is that mara morale drain is overcharged and overperforming ... so order tanks are never going to get morale in a proper direct fight... and your dps will struggle / be desynced.

Destro will always morale bomb first, due to more morale pump and morale drain ease of use...

Order has more healing and raw damage to make up for this

But I agree Its hard to balance but tweaking mara morale drain (not guttering it completely as its valid tactic) is probably whats need adjusting the most... Destro will still get first morale bomb due to pumps... so playing both sides and being one of stronger guilds i know its impact, so for guilds who might not be as organised can totally understand your complaints because its borderline broken/op/strong. Its a delicate issue that is for sure, too much nerf is a bad thing... leaving it as it is gives destro even more advantages, maybe when we go back to destro we won't have extra help :D
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DiMakss
Posts: 53

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#6 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:49 pm

RoR forum: "mara useless, only morale drain playable"
Also RoR forum: "nerf mara morale drain!"

I have better idea: lets replace all maras with wl, destro want "press x to kill" to.

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StrongUn
Posts: 223

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#7 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:52 pm

Marauder morale drain = superhipermegaultraOP


Slayer Rampage = ok


ok mates...
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Acidic
Posts: 1639
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Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#8 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:58 pm

Somehow this thread bring a certain tank M4 to mind which aoe drains all moral, oh wonder why that not mentioned when talking about drains

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1819

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#9 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:59 pm

Your post has some false information and weird conclusions.
Zealot is self pump tactic.
WH has 2 drains.
Shaman pumps group with EWG which has somewhat long CD, AM st pumps with nonstop spam, and gets an ally to M4 within 25-30sec. (say a KOTB with Solar Flare)
Mara drains is way superior to other drains for sure, but Solar Flare hits for certain and drains enough to nullify enemy M4s. BW BH drains massive amount of morale as well.

The original game balance somewhat hinted at Destro having better morale pump potential and defensive options, and on the other hands Order having better M4 "finish them" morales.
On Order you can bring M4 cheese like IB Axeslam, Kotb Solar Flare, RP Rune of Skewering, BW Burning Head, WH Divine Blast. With various other amazing morale tools like SM WoH, old RP Mountain Spirit (was 20s), Kotb M3 rootbomb, and classic BW M2 drop.
Destro had amazing defensive morale gameplay, with DoK self pump and 30s effect on 1001, Chosen+BORK fast M4 or even Bellows rotations, Sorc WWS up very fast, BO 5s m3 silence.

Obviously if Destro brings their best mara drains + good dps players, Order will struggle to win. But they usually don't, instead opting for more luls setups or whatever was found online.
We have lost so far only once when playing as Order in city sieges, and that was vs LOB/Exodus/Montague allience, with us only having 10 TUP + 6 Phalanx + 8 randoms online in the city wb. Good AMs and good knights with Solar Flare get you pretty far in city fights.

The mara drain probably needs some tweaking at some point, but it's hard to say whats correct drain value, considering it can proc on all melee attacks. 225 drain when aoeing feels potent (especially with Wrecking Ball hitting 7s hits over 3s, meaning target might lose 7x225=1575 morale in 3s, meaning full M3 is basically down to 0), the only change I'd maybe recommend was putting it at lower proc rate or adjusting it to maybe 150 or 125/100, depends if the idea is to have 1 mara prevent enemy morales, or 2-3 maras to completely nullify enemy morale gameplay.

another thing I would consider is removing Sorc M2 (was only added last year), and then maybe changing BW M2 bomb to M3. (they have self pump)

synthrocker
Posts: 34

Re: Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

Post#10 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:06 pm

Acidic wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:58 pm
Somehow this thread bring a certain tank M4 to mind which aoe drains all moral, oh wonder why that not mentioned when talking about drains

As a kotbs main, I haven’t seen anything past a sliver of morale 3 since city and Mara drain unless it’s against some useless pug. And it’s limited to 9? People I think.

I’m lucky to hit m2 in city unless we have pumps.
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