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[Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

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Parallels66
Posts: 57

[Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#1 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm

Hello, from playing an IB and feedback from other notable IBs, ive put together a few things together in the hopes the class can get some changes and fixes to help with how they perform compared to other classes. as it is right now, there isnt really a reason to take a IB over a SM or KotBS in larger group play unless slayer stacking, smaller scale (6 or less) you can still possible find a roll for IB. but these are the changes i propose. feedback/comments obviously welcome!

1- currently blackguard can gain their equal of grudge through basic attacks while ironbreakers cannot. first change i propose is to change them to be equal, remove the tactic to gain grudge on attack and make it baseline for ironbreakers aswell. there doesnt seem to be a real reason to me as to why blackguard gets it baseline and ironbreaker doesnt, even if BG has more spenders its still incredibly easy to stay at 100 for them compared to IB, in some smaller situations where more magic users are involved, you cant even buff due to the spellcasts not generating grudge, even if its not as strong as BGs 5 per hit, maybe something like 3 per hit would be gamechanging to IBs so this would just be a standard quality of life change for solo/small scale IBs.

2- Currently ironbreakers knockdown requires a block/parry to use shield of reprisal, my proposal would be remove the parry/block requirement on the knockdown and increase the cooldown from 10 to 13 seconds. with how organised content can be, there is sometimes a chance that your guard may be targeted and you getting ignored/dps calling on a target on a healer and you may need to assist, having a on demand knockdown would GREATLY help SnB ironbreakers utility in larger group content.

3- Blackguards currently have a "spammable" AoE with monstrous rending, my idea would be up the cost of shield sweep from 10 to 20 grudge, remove the cooldown of 10seconds and remove the grudge building on it and make it do some form of magic damage. if the on hit grudge building was added to IB aswell, i think this would be a nice change to try and make the IBs AoE damage better, pretty much every other tank in the game does some form of magic damage, be it elemental or spirit etc while IB/BG doesnt have any, so this may be a nice Quality of life change to help with AoE damage output.

4- currently, IB has the *worst* punt out of any tank in the game, blackguards have a insane golfswing punt, BO/SM have AoE, chosen and kotbs have the huge airtime/length punt when tacticed while IBs is very very lacking. currently the IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range half the time due to the low air height of the punt meaning the IB has to position more to use its punt effectively compared to other tanks who can just punt when needed due to the terrain and landscape and height defaults of their punt. a simple fix to this would be to make it more similar to the chosen/kotbs punts, give the IB punt more air time so they can punt targets out of guard range more consistantly even if for a moment.

5- An idea i had was to maybe make the IB buffs AoE around your oath friend something like 50yard range around your oath friend allied party members would also get the buffs, maybe at a slighly reduced quality? currently kotbs/chosen give buffs with higher numbers in an AoE while debuffing aswell compared to IBs single target buffs, a change like this would still keep the skill cap of maintaining buffs and keep oath friend swapping to maintain stronger buffs upon a target.

6- IB buffs currently do not stack with pots meaning alot of IBs effectiveness is greatly reduced/replaced by basic pots/linements, the engineers armor buff which stacks with pots currently due to it being a enchantment, with this i came up with the idea of making *some* of the IBs buffs into enchantments to increase the overall effectiveness of the buffs, making them more wanted/needed in a larger group enviroment rather than just being replaced by basic consumables.

7- Turn some of IBs damaging spells into some form of magic damage, currently IB/BG are the only tanks in the game which do 0 magic damage, with RoR compared to live the armor creep is much greater here due to armor pots not existing on live or armor talis not being as valued, so the combination of both makes it so anything doing pure physical damage is massively left behind due to reduction cap for physical being 75% reduction and magic being only 45%, so any tank doing some form of magic damage massively outscales pure physical damage tanks in a larger enviroment when fluff damage pressure is needed to hit that critical mass to get kills. even from a lore perspective it doesnt really make much sense IBs not having some form of magic damage due to them suppost to be using rune engraved and forged weapons and gromril armor.

8- Currently IB is the only tank in the game without proper debuffing tools, the only debuffs IBs have currently are the baseline tank armor debuff (which unless 100 grudge is negated by a basic armor pot) and a heal debuff which is talented, kotbs/chosen debuff just by existing, SM debuffs a flat % damage etc etc, it might be worth turning some of our buff tools into slight debuff tools aswell, as an example, vengeful strike buffs the IB and oath friends toughness by 75 default, why not add another element to it by debuffing the targets toughness by the same amount aswell. (just a quick off the top of head idea)

this is whats ive come up with so far for some basic fixes/changes for IB to help improve their abilities in larger scale content where they currently get left behind massively compared to SM/KotBS. Any comments/feedback on the changes above/ideas are obviously welcome. lets hope we can get some well needed changes inplace.

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Parallels66
Posts: 57

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#2 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:54 pm

bump

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yoluigi
Posts: 63

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#3 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:39 pm

The thing they should change is the tactic to get grudge by attacks make available without a tactic.

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Parallels66
Posts: 57

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#4 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:37 am

yoluigi wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:39 pm
The thing they should change is the tactic to get grudge by attacks make available without a tactic.
that surely would be a major step in the right direction, honestly even in 24v24 cities i can be grudge starved sometimes if im buffing effectively, though it probs will have to be lowered from 5 per hit to maybe like 3 though due to "stubborn as stone" buffing your auto speed by 50% when hit by spell damage.

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normanis
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Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#5 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:13 am

just make ib some tactics same as chosen - coruptive power and morale on block. some ib abilities has realy ****. for example avenging the debt. i dont think ib even use it.

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Ysaran
Posts: 795

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#6 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:18 am

Omg this post again? Really? IB is fine, stop with this nonsense
REQUIEM
Dweamarak-Slayer rr75
Sputarancori-IB rr75
Onan-WP rr61
Curopoco-AM rr54

Nocturne
Zputakatarro-Choppa rr83
Zputadenti-Shaman rr70
Zputazangue-BO rr54
Zputadenti-rSH rr48
Ysaran-BG work in progres

kaloel
Posts: 16

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#7 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:10 pm

Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
Hello, from playing an IB and feedback from other notable IBs, ive put together a few things together in the hopes the class can get some changes and fixes to help with how they perform compared to other classes. as it is right now, there isnt really a reason to take a IB over a SM or KotBS in larger group play unless slayer stacking, smaller scale (6 or less) you can still possible find a roll for IB. but these are the changes i propose. feedback/comments obviously welcome!
Imho not every class should be the same in every scenario. KotBS are better in larger scale fights, SM deals more damage and IB can buff the hell out of a single target. They all got their place in the meta. Just because IBs arent desired in every WB setup does not mean they require a buff, as that is what you are proposing, none of the listed suggestions are fixes.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
1- currently blackguard can gain their equal of grudge through basic attacks while ironbreakers cannot. first change i propose is to change them to be equal, remove the tactic to gain grudge on attack and make it baseline for ironbreakers aswell. there doesnt seem to be a real reason to me as to why blackguard gets it baseline and ironbreaker doesnt, even if BG has more spenders its still incredibly easy to stay at 100 for them compared to IB, in some smaller situations where more magic users are involved, you cant even buff due to the spellcasts not generating grudge, even if its not as strong as BGs 5 per hit, maybe something like 3 per hit would be gamechanging to IBs so this would just be a standard quality of life change for solo/small scale IBs.
That's the difference between BG and IB. BG gets more Hatred, but IB gets the better buffs. Ancestors Fury and Oathbound are better than a BG in total. I agree that this would be a game-changing, maybe even game-breaking change.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
2- Currently ironbreakers knockdown requires a block/parry to use shield of reprisal, my proposal would be remove the parry/block requirement on the knockdown and increase the cooldown from 10 to 13 seconds. with how organised content can be, there is sometimes a chance that your guard may be targeted and you getting ignored/dps calling on a target on a healer and you may need to assist, having a on demand knockdown would GREATLY help SnB ironbreakers utility in larger group content.
Other tanks have to invest points to even get their knockdown, and it has a 20s CD. The IB already has the strongest KD, and it is baseline. Therefore it has to have a significant drawback to be balanced. You can always guard someone that is taking damage to force a block/ parry, if the enemy is not hitting you. Requiring a condition to be met for a very strong CC skill is reasonable and promotes counterplay (i.e. by not hitting the IB, or the guardee).
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
3- Blackguards currently have a "spammable" AoE with monstrous rending, my idea would be up the cost of shield sweep from 10 to 20 grudge, remove the cooldown of 10seconds and remove the grudge building on it and make it do some form of magic damage. if the on hit grudge building was added to IB aswell, i think this would be a nice change to try and make the IBs AoE damage better, pretty much every other tank in the game does some form of magic damage, be it elemental or spirit etc while IB/BG doesnt have any, so this may be a nice Quality of life change to help with AoE damage output.
Not every class has to be able to do everything. Other tanks might deal some magical damage, that does not mean every tank needs to be able to deal magical damage. Classes to not need to be the exact same. There is even a rule on this forum to not appeal to mirror classes. If mirroring fixes an underlying balance problem that's fine, but all you seem to argue is "I want cause others have".
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
4- currently, IB has the *worst* punt out of any tank in the game, blackguards have a insane golfswing punt, BO/SM have AoE, chosen and kotbs have the huge airtime/length punt when tacticed while IBs is very very lacking. currently the IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range half the time due to the low air height of the punt meaning the IB has to position more to use its punt effectively compared to other tanks who can just punt when needed due to the terrain and landscape and height defaults of their punt. a simple fix to this would be to make it more similar to the chosen/kotbs punts, give the IB punt more air time so they can punt targets out of guard range more consistantly even if for a moment.
Same as 3. "I want cause others have" is not a valid claim to get a buff. Also IB has the only uncleansable AoE snare, on the AoE KB (not counting morales here), I think that's worth something.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
5- An idea i had was to maybe make the IB buffs AoE around your oath friend something like 50yard range around your oath friend allied party members would also get the buffs, maybe at a slighly reduced quality? currently kotbs/chosen give buffs with higher numbers in an AoE while debuffing aswell compared to IBs single target buffs, a change like this would still keep the skill cap of maintaining buffs and keep oath friend swapping to maintain stronger buffs upon a target.
"I want cause others have". The buffs an IB can give are insanely good, even for a single target. Every other tank would kill for +25% parry and +10% crit buffs with 0 cooldown. You can already buff multiple targets with this. Your oathfriend does not have a cooldown, nor is it on the global cooldown. You can buff 1 friend per global cooldown with this, and it even works for players outside of your group or warband!
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
6- IB buffs currently do not stack with pots meaning alot of IBs effectiveness is greatly reduced/replaced by basic pots/linements, the engineers armor buff which stacks with pots currently due to it being a enchantment, with this i came up with the idea of making *some* of the IBs buffs into enchantments to increase the overall effectiveness of the buffs, making them more wanted/needed in a larger group enviroment rather than just being replaced by basic consumables.
No buffs stack with any other buff, proc or potion. There are a handful of exceptions like magus/engineer armor buff as they would be literally useless without this, and they are not gamebreaking. It is not enchantments, buffs or blessings that don't stack, they fall into the same bucket. Also no class has both enchantments and blessings. Since they don't stack they can fix deficits the group has, like a missing wounds buff or no toughness aura. They are not meant to be stacked on RoR.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
7- Turn some of IBs damaging spells into some form of magic damage, currently IB/BG are the only tanks in the game which do 0 magic damage, with RoR compared to live the armor creep is much greater here due to armor pots not existing on live or armor talis not being as valued, so the combination of both makes it so anything doing pure physical damage is massively left behind due to reduction cap for physical being 75% reduction and magic being only 45%, so any tank doing some form of magic damage massively outscales pure physical damage tanks in a larger enviroment when fluff damage pressure is needed to hit that critical mass to get kills. even from a lore perspective it doesnt really make much sense IBs not having some form of magic damage due to them suppost to be using rune engraved and forged weapons and gromril armor.
Armor pots did exist on live, and armor talis were widely used on live. If you want to get past armor you have to get an armor debuff (yay you got one) and/or some armor penetration, like weaponskill. If your concern is that physical damage is generally less than magical you can argue for that in a different suggestion. But even that is not a reason to give everyone magical damage. What's next magical slayers and choppas?
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
8- Currently IB is the only tank in the game without proper debuffing tools, the only debuffs IBs have currently are the baseline tank armor debuff (which unless 100 grudge is negated by a basic armor pot) and a heal debuff which is talented, kotbs/chosen debuff just by existing, SM debuffs a flat % damage etc etc, it might be worth turning some of our buff tools into slight debuff tools aswell, as an example, vengeful strike buffs the IB and oath friends toughness by 75 default, why not add another element to it by debuffing the targets toughness by the same amount aswell. (just a quick off the top of head idea)
Order has always been the buffing faction. IB/KotBS/SW buffing crit, KotBS buffing healing, IB buffing parry while destro has more debuffs, BG/Mara debuffing inc. crit chance, BG debuffing parry/Block. While KotBS/Chosen auras might be too strong that is no reason to overpower IB's too. This is again "I want cause others have".
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
this is whats ive come up with so far for some basic fixes/changes for IB to help improve their abilities in larger scale content where they currently get left behind massively compared to SM/KotBS. Any comments/feedback on the changes above/ideas are obviously welcome. lets hope we can get some well needed changes inplace.
These suggestions are a blatant try to buff IB without pointing out any single concrete problem with it. "People wont take me" and "I want cause others have" are not a reasons to buff IB. IB's are incredibly strong when paired with a decent melee, there is no reason to make them the best tank in every scenario, just because you happen to play one. Buffing a good slayer or shield WB can make them insanely strong in a melee blob. You just have to find a setup for your IB, instead of wanting to fit into everything as the best choice.

Finally a an example of a good suggestion:
Problem: IB's can't use their class mechanic effectively in dungeons.
Why?: Bosses hit very slow but hard and sometimes their attacks are undefendable. This means the IB can't generate grudge, unlike say a BG.
Suggestions:
1) Change some bosses to hit more often, but with smaller attacks, to generte more grudge.
2) Give IB's a way to generate grudge without beeing hit, for example an on hit tactic.

In this case 2) exists and solves this problem, so there is no reason for further change.

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Parallels66
Posts: 57

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#8 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:57 pm

kaloel wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:10 pm
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
Hello, from playing an IB and feedback from other notable IBs, ive put together a few things together in the hopes the class can get some changes and fixes to help with how they perform compared to other classes. as it is right now, there isnt really a reason to take a IB over a SM or KotBS in larger group play unless slayer stacking, smaller scale (6 or less) you can still possible find a roll for IB. but these are the changes i propose. feedback/comments obviously welcome!

Imho not every class should be the same in every scenario. KotBS are better in larger scale fights, SM deals more damage and IB can buff the hell out of a single target. They all got their place in the meta. Just because IBs arent desired in every WB setup does not mean they require a buff, as that is what you are proposing, none of the listed suggestions are fixes.
except IBs are worse than the other 2 tanks in small scale now due to the armor creep, the elemental damage change to kotbs actually makes them do more damage than IBs now. "IB can buff the hell out of a single target" except in small scale you're constantly grudge starved and cant buff properly, hell even in large scale you're grudge starved sometimes if you're buffing effectively and properly AND not even considering the fact most of your buffs are replaced by knight auras which are higher in numerical value, replaced by self buffs, RP buffs, replaced by armor pots and specing 11 points into brotherhood tree only makes it 200-300 better than an armor pot which is roughly 5% physical damage decrease overall, the only thing you honestly bring to small scale the other tanks dont is the 20sec curse heal debuff, you cant even AP battery properly due to lack of grudge.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
1- currently blackguard can gain their equal of grudge through basic attacks while ironbreakers cannot. first change i propose is to change them to be equal, remove the tactic to gain grudge on attack and make it baseline for ironbreakers aswell. there doesnt seem to be a real reason to me as to why blackguard gets it baseline and ironbreaker doesnt, even if BG has more spenders its still incredibly easy to stay at 100 for them compared to IB, in some smaller situations where more magic users are involved, you cant even buff due to the spellcasts not generating grudge, even if its not as strong as BGs 5 per hit, maybe something like 3 per hit would be gamechanging to IBs so this would just be a standard quality of life change for solo/small scale IBs.

That's the difference between BG and IB. BG gets more Hatred, but IB gets the better buffs. Ancestors Fury and Oathbound are better than a BG in total. I agree that this would be a game-changing, maybe even game-breaking change.
except blackguard are basically more useful and wanted in 95% of gameplay over a IB due to the insane debuffs they apply because everyone even out of party benefits from debuffing, while MAYBE 2 people benefit from a 24man group if you're IB isnt grudge starved and buffing effectively, also the blackguard buffs strength, willpower and toughness and damage shield while still debuffing, meaning the only things that differ from IB and blackguard in terms of buffs/debuff is a 200-300 armor ontop of pot from guarded attack, parry buff, crit buff and a corp resistance buff. while also getting hatred on auto attack AND getting a flat 5 hatred on dark protector getting hit, while IB gets 0 grudge per hit and oathfriend grudge actually SCALING DOWN the amount of grudge you get based on how much grudge you have. its INFINITELY easier for a blackguard to play at constant high hatred than it is for an IB to play a mid to low levels of grudge.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
2- Currently ironbreakers knockdown requires a block/parry to use shield of reprisal, my proposal would be remove the parry/block requirement on the knockdown and increase the cooldown from 10 to 13 seconds. with how organised content can be, there is sometimes a chance that your guard may be targeted and you getting ignored/dps calling on a target on a healer and you may need to assist, having a on demand knockdown would GREATLY help SnB ironbreakers utility in larger group content.

Other tanks have to invest points to even get their knockdown, and it has a 20s CD. The IB already has the strongest KD, and it is baseline. Therefore it has to have a significant drawback to be balanced. You can always guard someone that is taking damage to force a block/ parry, if the enemy is not hitting you. Requiring a condition to be met for a very strong CC skill is reasonable and promotes counterplay (i.e. by not hitting the IB, or the guardee).
in terms of actually CC it is the ONLY CC other than slow/root (which you never use cos you want to keep punt immunity off cd) and requires a block/parry, its super nice cos its baseline, but a on demand knockdown you have to talent for is far more valueable CC than one where i have to block/parry for it to be useable. it actually makes IBs A LOT worse in small scale when SnB due to the lack of potential ondemand CC you can bring to a party aswell as having no debuff value to bring to the group and depending on small scale fight comp you may run with near 0 grudge to buff the entire time, as generate 0 grudge from hit and spells hitting you/oathfrind DO NOT generate grudge.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
3- Blackguards currently have a "spammable" AoE with monstrous rending, my idea would be up the cost of shield sweep from 10 to 20 grudge, remove the cooldown of 10seconds and remove the grudge building on it and make it do some form of magic damage. if the on hit grudge building was added to IB aswell, i think this would be a nice change to try and make the IBs AoE damage better, pretty much every other tank in the game does some form of magic damage, be it elemental or spirit etc while IB/BG doesnt have any, so this may be a nice Quality of life change to help with AoE damage output.

Not every class has to be able to do everything. Other tanks might deal some magical damage, that does not mean every tank needs to be able to deal magical damage. Classes to not need to be the exact same. There is even a rule on this forum to not appeal to mirror classes. If mirroring fixes an underlying balance problem that's fine, but all you seem to argue is "I want cause others have".
if you're going to introduce an armor creep to the server thats so high that its roughly a 35-40% increase to live, you a) need to compensate pure physical classes in some way due to scaling WAY less. b) give debuffs that outweigh the new changes to physical protection (which BG already had baseline) c) increase the baseline armor debuff numerical value because currently unless you armor debuff at 100 grudge (which if you're buffing correctly youll never be near that) a armor pot completely negates and overvalues your armor debuff, meaning its essentially useless. despite what people think, tanks DO need to do damage to help dps classes hit criticalmass for kills in an organised enviroment like cities etc, hense why blackguards are always wanted for their debuff value, if a tank is doing 300k protection 50k damage its far less valueable than a tank doing 100k damage 250k protection, but it seems you dont play IB/tank and understand the fundermenal issues every competant IB sees and asks for buffs on, hell even some of the top 2H IBs in top guilds with a REALISTIC rotation of keeping buffs applied etc are only doing 380~ dps to new dummies while a SnB SM doing a REALISTIC rotation will be near 400 dps.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
4- currently, IB has the *worst* punt out of any tank in the game, blackguards have a insane golfswing punt, BO/SM have AoE, chosen and kotbs have the huge airtime/length punt when tacticed while IBs is very very lacking. currently the IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range half the time due to the low air height of the punt meaning the IB has to position more to use its punt effectively compared to other tanks who can just punt when needed due to the terrain and landscape and height defaults of their punt. a simple fix to this would be to make it more similar to the chosen/kotbs punts, give the IB punt more air time so they can punt targets out of guard range more consistantly even if for a moment.

Same as 3. "I want cause others have" is not a valid claim to get a buff. Also IB has the only uncleansable AoE snare, on the AoE KB (not counting morales here), I think that's worth something.
btw, next to no one takes the AoE knockback tactic because it takes up a valueable tactic slot which is more use for something else and its not worth it and all that needs to change on IB punt is a more vertical flight, they fly way too close to the floor and terrain will cuck it a majority of the time, even something as little as a 15% increase to vertical flight would change the punt from being meh to very nice.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
5- An idea i had was to maybe make the IB buffs AoE around your oath friend something like 50yard range around your oath friend allied party members would also get the buffs, maybe at a slighly reduced quality? currently kotbs/chosen give buffs with higher numbers in an AoE while debuffing aswell compared to IBs single target buffs, a change like this would still keep the skill cap of maintaining buffs and keep oath friend swapping to maintain stronger buffs upon a target.

"I want cause others have". The buffs an IB can give are insanely good, even for a single target. Every other tank would kill for +25% parry and +10% crit buffs with 0 cooldown. You can already buff multiple targets with this. Your oathfriend does not have a cooldown, nor is it on the global cooldown. You can buff 1 friend per global cooldown with this, and it even works for players outside of your group or warband!
if you think IB buffs are insanely good you clearly do not play the class. 90% of your buffs are replaced by AoE buffs which also debuff/consumes which are of near equal or greater quality. in organised enviroments like cities your ONLY job is to buff a slayer crit/parry and feed it AP with grudge spenders. NONE of the IB buffs stack with any other buffs ingame currently. also it costs us 30 grudge every 10 seconds to buff crit/parry and thats not even including the 30 grudge cost on runic shield every 10 seconds on a SINGLE TARGET, which you SHOULD also be guardswap/oathfriend swapping depending on pressure to healers etc, which effective buffing honestly can be hard to do sometimes even in organised 24v24 cities due to grudge income not being huge and scaling down the more grudge you have, while other tanks can do higher buff numbers PASSIVELY or they just apply to party by default. also IB having the highest buff management, skillcap out of any class ingame while having the lowest reward :)
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
6- IB buffs currently do not stack with pots meaning alot of IBs effectiveness is greatly reduced/replaced by basic pots/linements, the engineers armor buff which stacks with pots currently due to it being a enchantment, with this i came up with the idea of making *some* of the IBs buffs into enchantments to increase the overall effectiveness of the buffs, making them more wanted/needed in a larger group enviroment rather than just being replaced by basic consumables.

No buffs stack with any other buff, proc or potion. There are a handful of exceptions like magus/engineer armor buff as they would be literally useless without this, and they are not gamebreaking. It is not enchantments, buffs or blessings that don't stack, they fall into the same bucket. Also no class has both enchantments and blessings. Since they don't stack they can fix deficits the group has, like a missing wounds buff or no toughness aura. They are not meant to be stacked on RoR.
that is true most buffs do not stack with pots/other buffs but generally if we look at knight as an example, their *AOE* buffs that are applied *PASSIVELY FOR EXISTING WHILE ALSO DEBUFFING* have such a numerical value they outweigh the *SINGLE TARGET BUFFS WHICH HAVE LIMITED DURATION AND A RESOURCE COST* meaning even if you are single target buffing like a completely minmax god, alot of your value is completely negated by other classes by them just existing with no skill element or brain thought process needed. thats the issue, passive AoE buffs outweight single target management buffs with a resource cost.
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
7- Turn some of IBs damaging spells into some form of magic damage, currently IB/BG are the only tanks in the game which do 0 magic damage, with RoR compared to live the armor creep is much greater here due to armor pots not existing on live or armor talis not being as valued, so the combination of both makes it so anything doing pure physical damage is massively left behind due to reduction cap for physical being 75% reduction and magic being only 45%, so any tank doing some form of magic damage massively outscales pure physical damage tanks in a larger enviroment when fluff damage pressure is needed to hit that critical mass to get kills. even from a lore perspective it doesnt really make much sense IBs not having some form of magic damage due to them suppost to be using rune engraved and forged weapons and gromril armor.

Armor pots did exist on live, and armor talis were widely used on live. If you want to get past armor you have to get an armor debuff (yay you got one) and/or some armor penetration, like weaponskill. If your concern is that physical damage is generally less than magical you can argue for that in a different suggestion. But even that is not a reason to give everyone magical damage. What's next magical slayers and choppas?
im 95% sure armor pots DIDNT exist on live btw, they was created specifically for RoR. and yay my armor debuff has less value than an armor pots value unless i pool to 100 grudge meaning im not buffing my target i should be buffing yay such value such wow. its also 1 of my 2 debuffs the class has and the other is talents. while other classes have MULTIPLE debuffs, like stealing stats, debuff auras etc etc which are always effective and dont require me to negate my class mechanic of buffing to do. and the compairion to slayers/choppas really just shows how ignorant you are to IB.

Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
8- Currently IB is the only tank in the game without proper debuffing tools, the only debuffs IBs have currently are the baseline tank armor debuff (which unless 100 grudge is negated by a basic armor pot) and a heal debuff which is talented, kotbs/chosen debuff just by existing, SM debuffs a flat % damage etc etc, it might be worth turning some of our buff tools into slight debuff tools aswell, as an example, vengeful strike buffs the IB and oath friends toughness by 75 default, why not add another element to it by debuffing the targets toughness by the same amount aswell. (just a quick off the top of head idea)

Order has always been the buffing faction. IB/KotBS/SW buffing crit, KotBS buffing healing, IB buffing parry while destro has more debuffs, BG/Mara debuffing inc. crit chance, BG debuffing parry/Block. While KotBS/Chosen auras might be too strong that is no reason to overpower IB's too. This is again "I want cause others have".
destro has a parry buff on chosen fyi, chosen also buffs basically the same as kotbs except for a few tactics that make kotbs better at it, like focused mending. debuffs are generally more value in 95% of pvp scenarios in basically every pvp mmo due to their innate out of party benefits to everyone. 1-2 people benefit from IB buffs, infinite amount of people benefit from debuffs. see the issue?
Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
this is whats ive come up with so far for some basic fixes/changes for IB to help improve their abilities in larger scale content where they currently get left behind massively compared to SM/KotBS. Any comments/feedback on the changes above/ideas are obviously welcome. lets hope we can get some well needed changes inplace.

These suggestions are a blatant try to buff IB without pointing out any single concrete problem with it. "People wont take me" and "I want cause others have" are not a reasons to buff IB. IB's are incredibly strong when paired with a decent melee, there is no reason to make them the best tank in every scenario, just because you happen to play one. Buffing a good slayer or shield WB can make them insanely strong in a melee blob. You just have to find a setup for your IB, instead of wanting to fit into everything as the best choice.
you ignorance with pretty much every one of your replies either states you a) are dont understand IB b) dislike IB c) just generally dont understand the fundamental basics of a group pvp game d) arent reading what im typing as im not asking to be the best in every scenario, im asking to be brought in line with other tanks in ANY scenario as currently IB is the worst tank for the highest skillcap and before you throw a hissyfit, the term "worst tank" doesnt mean its useless or bad or garbage as most people would understand that term, its the worst tank due to being basically unwanted unless there is a slayer there. there is next to 0 reason to take a IB over a SM with whispering winds or raking talons or a knight just existing with auras debuffs healing/buffing healing/other stats etc unless you specifically have that slayer.

you also somehow dont see an issue where a *TANK* class which isnt a solo spec class design like say WH/WE is left behind constantly, how often do you see in chat for people asking for SM and kotbs for city? all the time. how often do you see anyone asking for an IB for anything? basically never.

with your replies it really does point out and make it clear there is some personal dislike bias towards the class which anyone competant IB will tell you is fundamentally broken and left behind.
Last edited by Parallels66 on Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Parallels66
Posts: 57

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#9 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:59 pm

Ysaran wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:18 am
Omg this post again? Really? IB is fine, stop with this nonsense
if you think IB is fine you clearly do not play the class and/or order.

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Grimir
Posts: 21

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#10 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:17 pm

Yes, buff another Order class please, they really need this atm... :roll:

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