Destination: Keeps

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bwdaWAR
Posts: 309

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#21 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:25 pm

Spoiler:
Gobtar wrote:
bwdaWAR wrote: Is this really a good thing?
It gives the player more agency when it comes to defending their home, if they have a hub where other players are gathered and there is legitimate benefit to keeping the keep from being attacked (not having to relocate) then you are more likely to jump in a group. Most premades will be down for defending a keep, and if they are already stationed at a keep that is being attacked they are more likely to defend the keep.

Just because the elements that you described are indeed solo by nature doesn't mean steps shouldn't be made to incorporate those solo players in the war effort. These steps add incentive to players to form together, even forming escorting parties so that players can get from the warcamp to the keep. It's not about forcing players to do anything, but adds to the risk reward precedent that has been prevelant in WAR/ RoR.

Players are definitely more inclined to form groups when the action comes to them then if they have to go to the action. Players completely uninterested in the realm war can enjoy the solitary experience within a city or a warcamp. Historically the kill quests were only for specific SCs or zones which is another reason why I think moving these to the keep should be done.
What about the rest of the Open RvR? There are already complaints that nobody bothers defending BOs because there isn't much of a point in it, and this wouldn't contribute. Participating in offensive sieges not, either. Defensive sieges are not the only thing that happens, or at least should happen, in the lakes. The AFK people in the keeps will warp the AAO bonus, too.
What it does however is give a very convenient way for people who queue for SCs to, let's say it out, leech: leech zone locks (that they did nothing for, as they are queuing in the keep) since most warcamps aren't part of the lakes, but all keeps are, and leech the usually easier defensive keep sieges. At the moment, if a premade scenario party wants to take part of a keep defense and the advantages it has (NPCs dealing damage, better terrain, likely AAO), they have to ride to the keep, then go through the hostile siege force and into the keep itself. As far as RvR action goes, this has its advantage since they will probably fight the enemy's backline. And it most certainly has the effort-reward and that risk-reward thing you brought up, specifically that if you want Open RvR rewards, you will have to show some commitment and take the risk of going through a much larger force (or be part of the main force in the lake that was there before the siege and if successful, likely will be afterwards too), not just expect the RvR literally to come to your door while you do something else.
These people are also kind of a liability in the lakes due to their unreliability. People crash and logoff all the time, but you can generally expect people you see in the lake to actually want to be there and stay or come back, not just hang around because it's convenient for them at the moment and then disappear into a scenario when you need their support and you suddenly find yourself facing a much stronger force than you expected.
Under the current conditions this would probably lead to an increase in people joining scenarios while in the lake warbands, unknowingly or intentionally. Until the devs manage to find the cause of that bug and fix it, this will remain a concern.

On the other hand it will limit access to economically vital NPCs (how much they are so can be seen from the recent adjustment of the kill quests and the playerbase reactions). MMOs show quite clearly that people don't really like grouping up. Even in RoR you can see that people prefer the most casual way of grouping possible, such as open warbands for the lakes or solo queue options for scenarios. Whenever there is something they can reasonably do solo, a lot of people will opt for that: you can rarely see parties outside the lakes, while solo players you'll run into very often. This isn't even necessarily poor behavior as much as just part of life: players don't all have the time and, with the rest of their real life activities, energy to handle the time/effort organised groups require (not to mention organised groups always have an advantage that this playstyle forfeits, no matter how the game is set up). This is a constant source of arguments on WAR/RoR since it is very group-oriented, but casual players are still a large part (I personally have the impression that they are the majority) of RoR's, and most likely any MMO's, playerbase. WAR live tried to cater to these players with the quick and easy open PQ/lake/scenario party system.
One of the consequences of this suggestion, that you say would improve the Open RvR, goes exactly the opposite direction: you need to be in a group to be able to do something very basic you were able to do solo before and doesn't involve others, which doesn't even have anything to do with the Open RvR itself (at the moment at least); not simply joining the group and catching up with it wherever they are in the lake (as it is now), but being close to them before even going into the lake as you need their support. Being able to turn in a quest that you already completed isn't really a "reward" that you need to work hard for. There is a proverb I think is very appropriate here: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If people want to participate in Open RvR, they will do that without being forced. If you try to force them into it, they will more likely only do exactly as much required or just abandon the whole thing, plus they will lose some interest in the game as they'll feel mistreated and possibly just leave eventually.
It will also encourage people to camp the enemy's warcamp, keep and the road in between rather than bother with the objectives in the lake. That is, constantly, instead of just during sieges when they essentially form a blockade and actually contribute.

Everything considered, I think the join and return from scenarios inside keeps option, and moving warcamp NPCs and mailbox there would both make Open RvR worse. It's better to keep those activities as seperate as possible, and let people decide which of them they want to do at the time.

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Gobtar
Posts: 799

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#22 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:33 pm

bwdaWAR wrote:What about the rest of the Open RvR? This isn't a fix for all Open RvR just giving people a reason to get out of the warcamp and into a keep. There are already complaints that nobody bothers defending BOs because there isn't much of a point in it, and this wouldn't contribute. Participating in offensive sieges not, either. Defensive sieges are not the only thing that happens, or at least should happen, in the lakes. With this suggestion attacking a keep will only yield 0 rewards if one side has hit a critical mass and is just zerg-dominating The AFK people in the keeps will warp the AAO bonus, too. This already happens, most Destro warcamps are firmly in the lake, really hasn't taken that much of a toll on the game. You see the same number of people afking in the destro warcamp as you do on the order warcamp.
What it does however is give a very convenient way for people who queue for SCs to, let's say it out, leech: leech zone locks (that they did nothing for, as they are queuing in the keep) since most warcamps aren't part of the lakes, but all keeps are, and leech the usually easier defensive keep sieges, Zone locking rewards may change based on contribution to a keep take? Easy fix for this problem. At the moment, if a premade scenario party wants to take part of a keep defense and the advantages it has (NPCs dealing damage, better terrain, likely AAO), they have to ride to the keep, then go through the hostile siege force and into the keep itself Most parties that see tons of AAO and big zerg will ride to the keep before the fourth or third BO flips over, if they are catching stragglers they are still in an optimum set up, postern defences is usually tough on soloer not parties. As far as RvR action goes, this has its advantage since they will probably fight the enemy's backline. And it most certainly has the effort-reward and that risk-reward thing you brought up, specifically that if you want Open RvR rewards, you will have to show some commitment and take the risk of going through a much larger force (or be part of the main force in the lake that was there before the siege and if successful, likely will be afterwards too), not just expect the RvR literally to come to your door while you do something else. Yeah, the benefit to defending the keep is the kills, the benefit of attacking a keep is the potential victory and keep flipping. More chance of defence better the rewards. This is war, having a garrison at a keep should be incentivized, keep in mind seige might also come into the game and make it necessary to have more than a standing guard, these suggestions are ways to mitigate the problems i have witnessed in tier 4 live (pre and post 1.4.8 ORVR)
These people are also kind of a liability in the lakes due to their unreliability. People crash and logoff all the time, but you can generally expect people you see in the lake to actually want to be there and stay or come back, not just hang around because it's convenient for them at the moment and then disappear into a scenario when you need their support and you suddenly find yourself facing a much stronger force than you expected. As you mentioned this already, I have seen groups take SCs during a keep fight, because they got bored of the defense, my suggestions do not help or hinder this. What they do help is the fact that if the keep has clear benefits for staying at the keep they will be less likely to take that pop to avoid the "stress" of relocating.
Under the current conditions this would probably lead to an increase in people joining scenarios while in the lake warbands, unknowingly or intentionally. Until the devs manage to find the cause of that bug and fix it, this will remain a concern. I doubt it, the same people that queue for SCs now will be then, queueing is a conscious decision, joining even more so, that's also not to say that all the people afking in the warcamp will afk in the keep. The only thing this hurts is players that have been indulged by easy hand ins, for broken quests that spoiled the expectations of kill-quest rewards...and even marginally so..

On the other hand it will limit access to economically vital NPCs (how much they are so can be seen from the recent adjustment of the kill quests and the playerbase reactions)Having these npcs have a higher frag drop might also help the economy adding to the risk/reward. MMOs show quite clearly that people don't really like grouping up. Forming organized groups, Forming organized groups no, casual groups with no commitment very much so, it's why we have zerg herders and PUG warbands every day. Warhammer has done wonderful things to keep the introverts engaged and done so in such a way that there is no commitment or difficulty. Even in RoR you can see that people prefer the most casual way of grouping possible, such as open warbands for the lakes or solo queue options for scenarios. My point exactly Whenever there is something they can reasonably do solo, a lot of people will opt for that:(Warhammer is not a solo game, there should not be more incentives to play RvR solo than as a group.) you can rarely see parties outside the lakes , while solo players you'll run into very often. Groups will go into the PVE lakes as groups when there is an incentive for it, Dungeons, PQs, Stalker quests, and Grinding in Tier 3 (T2 rats proves my point, that people will group when there is an incentive to do so) This isn't even necessarily poor behavior as much as just part of life: players don't all have the time and, with the rest of their real life activities, energy to handle the time/effort organised groups require (not to mention organised groups always have an advantage that this playstyle forfeits, no matter how the game is set up). This is a constant source of arguments on WAR/RoR since it is very group-oriented, but casual players are still a large part (I personally have the impression that they are the majority) of RoR's, and most likely any MMO's, playerbase. WAR live tried to cater to these players with the quick and easy open PQ/lake/scenario party system. None of this will force players to group if they don't want to, adding incentives to group are obviously there, this actually will bring up the rise of more solo players due to WH/WE/AM/SW opportunities, those solo players that you are worried about will have even more opportunities to play alone. The first comment on here is that WH/WE will rejoice because they will have more opportunites at succeeding at a solo vocation.
One of the consequences of this suggestion, that you say would improve the Open RvR, goes exactly the opposite direction: you need to be in a group to be able to do something very basic you were able to do solo before and doesn't involve others, which doesn't even have anything to do with the Open RvR itself (at the moment at least); not simply joining the group and catching up with it wherever they are in the lake (as it is now), but being close to them before even going into the lake as you need their support. Being able to turn in a quest that you already completed isn't really a "reward" that you need to work hard for. There is a proverb I think is very appropriate here: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The hardest aspect of balancing this game is getting people to actually play, you wont need a group to get to the keep if you don't want one, but it might help, another incentive to forming groups isn't a bad thing, and alot of time players will form an unofficial group, just because of a common goal, then split off. If people want to participate in Open RvR, they will do that without being forced. If you try to force them into it, they will more likely only do exactly as much required or just abandon the whole thing, plus they will lose some interest in the game as they'll feel mistreated and possibly just leave eventually.
It will also encourage people to camp the enemy's warcamp, keep and the road in between rather than bother with the objectives in the lake. That is, constantly, instead of just during sieges when they essentially form a blockade and actually contribute. As you mentioned already BOs aren't defended as it is (which is untrue because attacking a BO when there is little action is akin to kicking a hornets nest, maybe its dead, maybe not), yet whole zergs will leave a keep to rush off to defend a BO. Tactics you mentioned aren't bad ways of incorporating more pvp, and the best way of forming a cohesive zerg is to camp a warcamp, when the campees get to a critical point and can burst out of a camped warcamp,
Everything considered, I think the join and return from scenarios inside keeps option, and moving warcamp NPCs and mailbox there would both make Open RvR worse. It's better to keep those activities as seperate as possible, and let people decide which of them they want to do at the time.

The game should not be balanced on the whim of solo players, incentives are a good thing, this wont punish solo players but it will add desire to group up, this wont make groups even sillier, this wont balance the overall campaign, this wont bring more leechers (Destro-side at least) this wont make SC-queuers queue more. This will add a place other than the warcamp for players to go and hang out until they decide to roam the lakes. This will also add a greater chance of keep defenses and greater rewards for keep attackers. This will add more solo ganking opportunites, this will add more PvP. This will help the economy. Lastly this will not force players to leave the confines of a warcamp if they want to sit in a Warcamp and do nothing.
Counterpoints in Yellow
drmordread wrote:I think once the game is fixed you will see a lot more people in the lakes, without having to move npc vendors into the keeps.


What is this "Fixed"? As for the vendor's good, I was strictly talking about the quality of crafting goods, not the scrolls or the mount options.
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samsauce
Posts: 35

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#23 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:54 pm

Razid1987 wrote:
Gobtar wrote:A side effect will indeed be more PvP.
PvP?!! In a PvP-game!?? We can't have that! Abort! Abandon ship!
hahaha =D

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aelic
Posts: 39

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#24 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:01 pm

more pvp, yes please!

bwdaWAR
Posts: 309

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#25 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:20 pm

Spoiler:
Gobtar wrote:(Warhammer is not a solo game, there should not be more incentives to play RvR solo than as a group.)

None of this will force players to group if they don't want to, adding incentives to group are obviously there, this actually will bring up the rise of more solo players due to WH/WE/AM/SW opportunities, those solo players that you are worried about will have even more opportunities to play alone. The first comment on here is that WH/WE will rejoice because they will have more opportunites at succeeding at a solo vocation.

The game should not be balanced on the whim of solo players, incentives are a good thing, this wont punish solo players but it will add desire to group up, this wont make groups even sillier, this wont balance the overall campaign, this wont bring more leechers (Destro-side at least) this wont make SC-queuers queue more. This will add a place other than the warcamp for players to go and hang out until they decide to roam the lakes. This will also add a greater chance of keep defenses and greater rewards for keep attackers. This will add more solo ganking opportunites, this will add more PvP. This will help the economy. Lastly this will not force players to leave the confines of a warcamp if they want to sit in a Warcamp and do nothing.
You have taken the whole "solo players" thing out of context and turned it into an assumption that I support solo players IN RVR. That description of MMO player habits was to emphasise how much people will avoid grouping unless absolutely necessary and prefer to do whatever they can on their own time and their own terms. Because of that simply to be able to turn in quests, which is not a group activity, will be unlikely to serve as an incentive to group up, rather than just not doing those quests at all.
Group activities being something that your teammates contribute to and are also doing. Combat is a group activity because all classes are designed to be strong in some roles, weak in others (how well this works is debatable, but the goal is clearly that) and have counters in PvP, so they need teammates complement them in tasks they're not good at.
Buying gear, training abilities/masteries/renown, crafting (not the monster grinding part which is, again, combat) or picking up/turning in quests. These are what I called solo activities because in the end you do them alone, and you don't need (nor can really get) any help from others with the activity itself. Groups for those are completely pointless.
How will moving the quest NPCs to the keeps from the warcamp not force people to either group up for these solo activities or just abandon them when they can expect gankers to be on that path? Everything that's in keeps at the moment, with the exception of the keep defense kill quest which only a few people take as it is, can be done elsewhere (in Altdorf/Inevitable City, specifically) if you don't want to go into the lake.
This quote was taken to point out a contradiction: while you say that the game should not be balanced on the whim of solo players, later you state as a benefit of the suggested changes that it creates more opportunities for solo ganking (which I agree with that it will, by the way), thus encouraging/supporting that play style. So is solo playing in RvR a good or a bad thing?
As for leeching, I did notice that some of the Destruction warcamps are part of the lake, something which I personally think should be changed. But if the hub is moved to the keep, everyone will leech. Not exactly what I'd call a solution.

It's better to give people a reason to want to play in the Open RvR, especially its battlefield objectives/keep action of all kinds since Open RvR isn't just a team deathmatch arena. Not just a reason to be in the lakes (which is what these suggestions are aimed at, exclusively, with plenty of side effects). The first one will bring the second, while the reverse is not true. Tweaking rewards for BO/keep action would work much better towards that goal.

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Gobtar
Posts: 799

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#26 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:09 pm

Spoiler:
bwdaWAR wrote:
You have taken the whole "solo players" thing out of context and turned it into an assumption that I support solo players IN RVR. That description of MMO player habits was to emphasise how much people will avoid grouping unless absolutely necessary and prefer to do whatever they can on their own time and their own terms. Because of that simply to be able to turn in quests, which is not a group activity, will be unlikely to serve as an incentive to group up, rather than just not doing those quests at all.

Group activities being something that your teammates contribute to and are also doing. Combat is a group activity because all classes are designed to be strong in some roles, weak in others (how well this works is debatable, but the goal is clearly that) and have counters in PvP, so they need teammates complement them in tasks they're not good at.
Buying gear, training abilities/masteries/renown, crafting (not the monster grinding part which is, again, combat) or picking up/turning in quests. These are what I called solo activities because in the end you do them alone, and you don't need (nor can really get) any help from others with the activity itself. Groups for those are completely pointless.
How will moving the quest NPCs to the keeps from the warcamp not force people to either group up for these solo activities or just abandon them when they can expect gankers to be on that path? Everything that's in keeps at the moment, with the exception of the keep defense kill quest which only a few people take as it is, can be done elsewhere (in Altdorf/Inevitable City, specifically) if you don't want to go into the lake.
This quote was taken to point out a contradiction: while you say that the game should not be balanced on the whim of solo players, later you state as a benefit of the suggested changes that it creates more opportunities for solo ganking (which I agree with that it will, by the way), thus encouraging/supporting that play style. So is solo playing in RvR a good or a bad thing?
As for leeching, I did notice that some of the Destruction warcamps are part of the lake, something which I personally think should be changed. But if the hub is moved to the keep, everyone will leech. Not exactly what I'd call a solution.

It's better to give people a reason to want to play in the Open RvR, especially its battlefield objectives/keep action of all kinds since Open RvR isn't just a team deathmatch arena. Not just a reason to be in the lakes (which is what these suggestions are aimed at, exclusively, with plenty of side effects). The first one will bring the second, while the reverse is not true. Tweaking rewards for BO/keep action would work much better towards that goal.
My suggestion was not to strictly benefit solo players, but I do recognize that some solo players will enjoy the added opportunity of ganking. I understand that handing in quests is a solo endeavour, and this can be continued to be accomplished, the reason why i made the suggestion to have the kill quest givers at the keep is because it eliminates the need to leave the keep once you are established there. There is a precedent established in the game that Quest givers with high rewards are located in the lakes, this is already the case with keep lords and in Tier 1 with BO defense quests. The kill quests have completely spoiled the player base (they are not working as originally designed). You could completely do away with them and just make the keep lord quest the main attraction with much grander rewards (as is already the case).

As for leeching, the major problem with leeching is how zone flips work, zone leechers were much worse on live, and you would have AFK scipt macroers in the edges of the pvp lake with a banner out. How rewards are granted for zone flips can be changed if you are worried about leeching. This was mostly the case due to the fact that keep takes and Resource ticks were lake wide, before that, people would just sit in the warcamp and come out when the zone would flip over. I personally am in favour of gaining additional benefits for work accomplished (Contribution during keep fight and double dipping on BO takes). Sitting in the warcamp and putting your toe in the lake when is about to flip is just a formality at this stage.

The goal here is to start adding incentives and have the in game world mirror what you would expect of a keep or fortified position. If the solo player is afraid of dying on the way to the keep to hand in a quest, maybe he has to ask himself if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Right now you either do SCs or ORvR for the kill quest, if you are doing SCs good chances are you would already be set up in the keep or endeavour the short trip to get there, if you are killing stuff in ORvR chances are you have the skillset or party to get back to the keep. This can also be combined with a universal kill quest so that you dont need to flip zones to hand quests in. Scouting missions when fixed and other RVR related quests can give players a reason to launch from the keeps to the lakes and secure BOs. I am all for adding changes to ORVR so that keep takes and defenses are a desirable venture, but we can still lay the ground-work richer ORVR ecosystem to build on, especially one that is needed when Keeps start dropping bags again.
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wiscel
Posts: 487

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#27 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:10 pm

That's lots of text, I will read it tomorrow at work :-D
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bwdaWAR
Posts: 309

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#28 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:26 pm

The quests in the lakes aren't nearly as popular as the quests in the warcamps, likely for the two reasons that people are lazy to move away from their post-SC spawn point, and they don't want to risk being attacked on the way there. As for the people having their base with everything available in the keeps... in case that was missed, I was protesting against that idea and the playstyle that it allows, specifically that they queue in the keep and only Open RvR when it comes right to them. You do one or the other, not both. If you choose to SC out of the lake, the least you can be expected is to put some effort into rejoining the action. Otherwise...
Why should people who play scenarios while AFK in the keep have an advantage over people who PvE or just idle when there isn't a defensive siege happening? Scenarios aren't related any more closely to the Open RvR than anything else you might do in the game. If people should be allowed to join scenarios in keeps and return there so they can join a keep defense right away without any travel time or risks involved wading through gankers and an enemy mob, so should players doing other non-oRvR things as well. With other words, moving the zone arrival point flight master and the rally master with the bind point to the keeps along with the quest givers, merchants, the mailbox and so on.
Gobtar wrote:The goal here is to start adding incentives and have the in game world mirror what you would expect of a keep or fortified position.
These kind of comments keep popping up and I don't see how this is relevant to game balance/mechanics/player behavior management changes. Did RoR turn into a hardcore roleplay server?

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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: Destination: Keeps

Post#29 » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:23 am

i really like any concept that make feel the world more living which is somethign Orvr lack completly or became vary bad after the rvr rewamp in live.

but i also share some of @bwdwar concers, especially about queue insides keep and aao; if there is any aao wc it need to reported and fixed but deliberatly allow queue inside keep is a wrong idea.

it's interesting have keep get focussed of attention, craft /armor /weapon merchant and other stuff the very kind you can also get inside wc.
I think due to linear war system you really need a big incentive to make it happen be it move everything from wc inside keep until is taken or anything else.
Or also force ppl to be able to craft ( not also gatherinc) inside keeps/IC.

It may be a problem for t2 keep which are smaller

Other implementation as roaming guards and siege weapon on flags can be done once those things will be fix.

it's interesting btw, you should continue to work on this idea.

bwdaWAR wrote:
Gobtar wrote:The goal here is to start adding incentives and have the in game world mirror what you would expect of a keep or fortified position.
These kind of comments keep popping up and I don't see how this is relevant to game balance/mechanics/player behavior management changes. Did RoR turn into a hardcore roleplay server?
even the eye want's his part @bwdawar you dont need to be a roleplayer to see how much empty feel keeps sometimes.
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