DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[ThePollie]

To clarify, my issue is with the resource generation reduction. The range reduction is fine. I'd even be fine if it was an area around you, not a cone in front of it.

Edit- Additional note, I don't see anything stopping them from chaining Smite with a few Judgements, which wouldn't require melee range.

[mursie]

Smite is already good. The last thing it needs is to be even more of an excellent resource generator which conveniently doesn't require you to actually melee anything,

Not sure if you were being sarcastic - but you do actually have to hit targets for the RF on smite. maybe by melee you meant be within 5ft to hit something?

[Penril]

Smite is already good. The last thing it needs is to be even more of an excellent resource generator which conveniently doesn't require you to actually melee anything, just run in and throw it out from 40ft and run back again.

Keep in mind i suggested it only if Book/Chalice didnt give resources anymore. So the WP would need to Smite constantly (backline Salvation healers with purple books dont need to smite that much tbh).

What do you think about free Fueled Actions/Fueled fury then? WP/Dok will recover resources when hit. So standing in the backline will make them run out pretty quickly.

[bloodi]

Keep in mind i suggested it only if Book/Chalice didnt give resources anymore. So the WP would need to Smite constantly (backline Salvation healers with purple books dont need to smite that much tbh).

What do you think about free Fueled Actions/Fueled fury then? WP/Dok will recover resources when hit. So standing in the backline will make them run out pretty quickly.

Do you want to live in a world where people realizes the best tactic is to not attack the healer?

Exactly.

[Penril]

Keep in mind i suggested it only if Book/Chalice didnt give resources anymore. So the WP would need to Smite constantly (backline Salvation healers with purple books dont need to smite that much tbh).

What do you think about free Fueled Actions/Fueled fury then? WP/Dok will recover resources when hit. So standing in the backline will make them run out pretty quickly.

Do you want to live in a world where people realizes the best tactic is to not attack the healer?

Exactly.

You mean a healer that can still recover all his resource anyway with a good Smite, Supplication, or just standing close to AoE damage. I would definitely attack him, specially if he is unguarded and my other options are a guarded mdps or a tank.

WPs had Exalted Defenses in T4 and people still attacked them all the time.

Anyway, the point of my posts was that you can't just remove +resource from books/chalices without giving them an alternative because it would kill Salvation WPs. They would need another way to regain resource, and it should be something that forces them to get close to the frontline (otherwise we just went full circle).

[Azarael]

Smite is already good. The last thing it needs is to be even more of an excellent resource generator which conveniently doesn't require you to actually melee anything,

Not sure if you were being sarcastic - but you do actually have to hit targets for the RF on smite. maybe by melee you meant be within 5ft to hit something?

Yes, by melee I meant that you would have to catch something and hit it. I don't really think AoEing out from 40 ft quite counts.

Anyway, the point of my posts was that you can't just remove +resource from books/chalices without giving them an alternative because it would kill Salvation WPs. They would need another way to regain resource, and it should be something that forces them to get close to the frontline (otherwise we just went full circle).

I would address this by buffing Grace and solving MAD. That was the point of my original post. Salvation WPs should lean towards casted heals, yes, but they should be compensated for any reduction in regeneration by contributing more to their team while they build resource, which is what Grace handles. The problem we've got is that Salvation is allowed to be considered as a solitary tree, because it's not properly linked into the other two trees (and no, AoE detaunt intended for MDPS WPs is not a proper link).

Do excuse me for using the Order names for the class elements, but rest assured that I speak regarding both WP and DoK here. It's just easier to say Grace than Sacrifice, because the current Sacrifice is actually used as a MDPS spec and I'd rather people didn't misunderstand my views based on that.

[Tklees]

Then maybe some abilities from salvation need to be put in grace tree to link them. I think group cleanse would be an interesting one to move there. Would make backlines WP have to chose aoe detaunt or group cleanse come t4.

[Azarael]

I thought about it, tbh... but I must be honest, I like that when playing Grace, more management is required. I wouldn't like to have the AoE cleanse simply because I wouldn't have to target it anymore. WP and DoK have a number of elements which are simply too basic, and should be made more difficult to use, and I believe the group cleanse fits in this category.

The other part is that the tactics in Grace and Sacrifice would have to be shifted. I could see ET / GoS at 9pts to give Salvation access to it when off-speccing Grace for a full healer build, but whether that'd be balanced (and what would end up happening to Leading the Prayer which is also quite neat) I do not know.

[Penril]

- Remove resource from books/chalices. Give them defensive stats instead (+toughness, disrupt, idk...)

- Increase resource gained from Sigmar's Radiance to 50 (indirectly buffing melee healers as well).

- Change the healing part of SR, so even if used by a Salvation WP doing pitiful damage it still heals for a decent amount. So a Salvation WP that runs out of resource can spam SR for a few GCDs, regain resource, and still keep his group alive.

edit: Actually, maybe you could change books to: "when using a book, Sigmar's Radiance will heal for XXXXX" instead of "heals for 50% of the damage you do". The value should be good enough to keep your group alive for at least 2 GCDs (while you regain resources) but not so good as to keep everyone alive just by spamming it.

[ThePollie]

I thought about it, tbh... but I must be honest, I like that when playing Grace, more management is required. I wouldn't like to have the AoE cleanse simply because I wouldn't have to target it anymore. WP and DoK have a number of elements which are simply too basic, and should be made more difficult to use, and I believe the group cleanse fits in this category.

The other part is that the tactics in Grace and Sacrifice would have to be shifted. I could see ET / GoS at 9pts to give Salvation access to it when off-speccing Grace for a full healer build, but whether that'd be balanced (and what would end up happening to Leading the Prayer which is also quite neat) I do not know.

The problem I have with the AoE cleanse idea is that, as it is for Grace, Purify is selfish as hell. I can't remember the last time I used it on an ally that didn't involve me being forced out of the melee in the first place, it's always used off-cooldown to help sustain me in the melee with all the DoTs. I would like to see Leading the Prayer be more used, though. It's a fine tactic, I don't think it needs changed much if at all. The problem I have is there simply isn't room for it on the tactic bar.