DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[Ghostweed]

... Am/shaman get the 500 heal on cleanse tactic, that is the ridiculous diference, we are glad that our single target cleanse puts a pitiful hot besides a pitiful shield, how they Dok/Wp get something that lets them cleanse entire groups is so bizarre to me.

small OT from Shaman POV: one have to slot Green Cleanin tactic to get that 500 heal u speak about. Also its slow HoT (cca 550hp,9sec) on 5 CD. So u have to drop Restorative Burst (no wonder) or Shrooms (10% heal crit] / Discipline ( + will) or Run Away!. Practically u drop Run Away! and u have to stand behind a shield wall and position well for puny 550 hp slow HoT (and tiny 140hp bubble). Well quess what? Im not using (mostly).

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Isn't it a bit pointless to generalise based on a class specific tactic? (1/4 cloth healers)?

Also maybe look at end gear (1431 + [660] vs 2860) and consider blue 907 potions vs 25% on tic to proc 1056?

I am still waiting for your calculation mister-throwing-random-numbers-and-assumptions-into-the-room.

I ve done it myself and the difference is 4% of armor. Let us see what you can come up with.

[SigmarPriest]

but dok/wp got both and there are tools to transfer one of resourses to other one. So all pluses you point for AP are valid for them aswell + rf regen that dont stop while casting, undebuffable secondary pool and so on. While you could ap harass backlines healers you could not shutdown dok/wp healing resourses.

Yes DOK/WP has one ap heal with 5 seconds CD.

Yes DOK/WP has one skill that transfer AP in fury, supplication. Supplication gives you 5 seconds 30 fury every second with 10 seconds CD. That are when i am not wrong 5 fury more then an AP healer got through base reg (25 AP / sec plain). So while the WP need to stand still, and cast a channel that can be interrupt. The AP healer can move from a to b and reg nearly the same amount. Without any possibility to interrupt his reg. (yes you have smite to but you need at least to hit 4 people to make 1 grp heal then you have 5 sec CD and when you are able to hit 4 people you stand not in the backline)

Yes Fury from a book reg while you cast. 8 Fury / second. So he need 3 seconds to gain that what a AP healer gain in 1 second.

Sure if you try to harass the dok/wp only with ap leech it is not so easy like harass AP healers. But When just give him or his healing target a HD you harass him with his ressources more then an AP healer with ap steal or leech. Sure AP healers suffer under a HD too but because of their better cost-value ratio it hits them not that hard.

I have the feeling that when people think about the dok/wp they remember at the full souv wp/dok who really was able to spam grp heal. Without souv you make as wp only 5 grp heals in row when you enter a fight with a full pool. After that you are done with your ressources and need to invest time and effort to gain new ressources. And that is exact how it should be. So there is no WP/DOK that constantly pump heals that is just impossible.

[Penril]

Isn't it a bit pointless to generalise based on a class specific tactic? (1/4 cloth healers)?

Also maybe look at end gear (1431 + [660] vs 2860) and consider blue 907 potions vs 25% on tic to proc 1056?

I am still waiting for your calculation mister-throwing-random-numbers-and-assumptions-into-the-room.

I ve done it myself and the difference is 4% of armor. Let us see what you can come up with.

Question (and with you i always feel i have to clarify that im not trying to flame or start a war).

Sorry if i missed a post where you answered this already, but to me it is not clear if you are saying Dok/WP are balanced with the other healers. Would you change those classes AT ALL or leave them as they are?

Second question: Why do you guys constantly run double Dok on your premades (i have seen it in several of your streams; if you run different healers then i might have missed those streams) if the other healers are just as good? Is it because Doks are the only healers your guildies/friends have leveled up so far? Is it because it works better for your group composition?

[Karast]

I am a bit late to the conversation, but I have always felt the the second resource pool was a very big factor in DoK / WP dominance. I agree with many in this thread that it is a huge advantage over one resource healers, since DoK / WP don't fear AP drains, and debuffs in the same way.

You can make some super tanky RP's but if they have 1-2 AP drains, and then the BO AP cost increase debuff, they are out of the fight, even if they can take the dps. It is a very valid tactic to take out a robe healer with AP drains. That is a key weakness in my opinion.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Sorry if i missed a post where you answered this already, but to me it is not clear if you are saying Dok/WP are balanced with the other healers. Would you change those classes AT ALL or leave them as they are?

They are balanced in terms of defense/healoutput, with the wp/dok shining in outhealing ae, while the others are better at singletarget heal.
Right now every single healer is viable in every form of combination. AM/AM for example. That might change in t4 we will see, but back on live I had 6on6 even with AM/RP healing. The reason why those setups are played less is written below.

Second question: Why do you guys constantly run double Dok on your premades (i have seen it in several of your streams; if you run different healers then i might have missed those streams) if the other healers are just as good? Is it because Doks are the only healers your guildies/friends have leveled up so far? Is it because it works better for your group composition?

DoK/Wp are better ae healers, when you fight more than 6 enemies and there is a lot of ae involved, DoK and WP are necessary. For single target heal you need a single target healer though. In our setup it is a meleedok. Which makes us competitive in 6on6.
Before we played tripple dok we played with shami/zelot almost always.
I would love to play with shami and zelot again but it makes our setup less stable vs uneven numbers. Also those classes have a high skillcap and our healers would need some time to get used to them.
Our former zelot left due to RL issues. Jace doesnt seem to like his shaman. Heaton doesnt have shaman or zelot.

[Penril]

Ok. Thanks for your answers.

[Bozzax]

Isn't it a bit pointless to generalise based on a class specific tactic? (1/4 cloth healers)?

Also maybe look at end gear (1431 + [660] vs 2860) and consider blue 907 potions vs 25% on tic to proc 1056?

I am still waiting for your calculation mister-throwing-random-numbers-and-assumptions-into-the-room.

I ve done it myself and the difference is 4% of armor. Let us see what you can come up with.

Not so random numbers but level 40 numbers for Sov armor RP 1431/WP 2860, Dwarf racial 660, RP armor proc 1056 and blue 907 armor potion.

Did your calculations assume the RP only buffs himself and never the WP?

IMO the part of the buff which has most value is the reduced penetration. Assuming you commit to stacking armor ofc else it has little value.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Not so random numbers but level 40 numbers for Sov armor 1431/2860, racial 660, armor proc 1056 and blue 907 armor potion.

Did your calculations assume the RP only buffs himself and never the WP? My POV comes from seeing the buff being severed from time to time as well.

IMO the part of the buff which has most value is the reduced penetration.

RANDOM numbers! You have to list the armorvalues for every class you want to compare, seperately, sum them up and compare the respective percentages.

Now stop dodging and do the calculation. After I pointed out the mistakes we can go on without you hopefully.

If you compare 2 classes you usually see them seperately without buffing each other, if you compare setups you have to though. Now that you want to add regenerative shielding to the wp, you might not see it with your flawed logic, but it basically speaks in the RPs favor not in the wps one. It is similar to the sc chart of heals, only 80% heals of the wp, grped with a rp, belong to himself. Because the rp buffs not only his own heal.

Do your calculation.

[Tsumina]

i'm jealous of my zealot, she has better heals and better utility. those marks? super useful. she can't get that tactic that gives her and a handful of friendlies endless ap yet, but it's not like the dok had something like that. not that i'm complaining, I kind of like having to work regen into my gameplay. it wasn't until I had the best t4 gear that I didn't need to regen soul essence manually. ap drain? ap pots. plus knockdown can usually stop me or any other cc, though i'm usually not far from my group because of terrain. I would think doks are preffered because of that nifty clear all dots morale ability. and group heal ofc, I haven't seen zellies or shammies cleanse that much, whereas I do nearly half the time. it's those single target dps ams and bws, from what I hear they're really good in t3, and I see groups running them all the time. I can't really keep up with the endless dots, especially if people don't detaunt. someone said too about doks not needing as much babysitting. that's true, zealots and shammies need to be good at kiting, but I think that's part of what makes those classes enjoyable. abilities for kiting and such, not just straight healing. I can't speak so much for what shammans excel at, I've always been sort of racist towards greenskins and haven't played one out of t2. Zealots are good at single target healing and doks are good at on the move group healing. I don't use my insta group heal often though, takes a lot of soul essence, and seldom does my group stay together enough for aoe to do spread out dmg. really I wouldn't mind if I had to do mdps to heal if my healing didn't take a huge hit, ofc that would bring about the problem with dps doks dying easily to ranged, plus we couldn't spend so much time cleansing, because what's the point of being in melee range ifyou're just going to cast all the time?

srry, i'm a noob and don't understand all the technical things, but that's my opinion