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Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

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User avatar
boog
Posts: 343

Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

Post#1 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:03 pm

How Things Work Now

Obviously Ironbreaker and Blackguard share the same mechanic. However, the means by which the classes gain resources for their mechanic are slightly different.

As it stands right now (and as it did on live) the Blackguard can gather resources (Hate) the following ways:

- Dark Protector
- Taking Damage
- Giving Damage

These means to gather Hate Blackguards have 3 means by which to build their Hate which is essential to a Blackguards success (as is the case for most classes, regarding their mechanic).

Meanwhile, the Ironbreaker can only gather resources (Grudges) the following ways:

- Oathfriend
- Taking Damage

Their is a third way that requires using the tactic, Rising Anger, which allows the Ironbreaker to build Grudges when giving damage.

The Perceived Problem

This third means of acquiring Grudges takes up a valuable tactic slot. Without using Rising Anger it can be an arduous task trying to gather Grudges. Even more so, if the Ironbreaker has high block, parry, dodge, or disrupt rating it further hinders the Ironbreakers ability to build Grudges. Clearly rotating Oathfriend to friendly players you see getting hit can help the situation but does not always resolve the issue.

In addition, it is common sense (or should be) that you do not hit tanks first, you save them for last. That rule is especially true for Ironbreakers as they have a reputation for being defensive (as do Blackguards). More often than not (from my experiences), this mean that without running Rising Anger tactic my only means of building Grudges comes from rotating my Oathfriend ability to those that are taking the most damage.

As it stands for most classes one tactic slot is already occupied by an essential stat boost to guarantee that class performs at optimal proficiency. In the case of the Ironbreaker, you are nearly required to slot Rising Anger (To build Grudges) and Rugged (Toughness increase). This in end-game ultimately leads to Ironbreaker only having two tactic slots to utilize. In my opinion, this is puts Ironbreaker at a slight disadvantage in comparison. I by no means am stating that I believe Ironbreaker to be a nerfed or gimp class. I have always played Ironbreaker and they are one of my favorite tanks to play as well as being one of the most versatile; being able to become a practically unkillable defensive tank and a powerful offensive tank and being able to be played comfortably in the middle of those extremes.

Solution

I believe the resource building mechanic for Ironbreaker is in need of change. I would propose that the Ironbreaker mechanic build Grudges the following way:

- Oathfriend
- Giving Damage

And then allowing the Rising Anger tactic to be repurposed to build Grudges when taking damage.

I believe that by allowing Ironbreaker Grudges to build naturally by giving damage it would help the Ironbreaker to be able to build Grudges at a much more reliable rate and not require an additional tactic slot to be required.

Conclusion

I would not go as far as to say allow the Ironbreaker mechanic to function exactly as the Blackguard mechanic. I presume that the reason the mechanics were different was for the reason of balance issues and I would not want to alter the balance of the two classes, assuming that is why their resource building methods are different.

I am open to any critiques or criticisms offered but please be constructive. If you oppose what I have suggested please have reasoning and sufficient conditions as to why you believe the suggestion would not work. Also if you believe the system works fine as it is, I respect that, but please offer supporting evidence as to why it works fine as it is and what you believe the projected imbalance would occur from these proposals coming to fruition.

Thank you :mrgreen:
CHSN Wafulz | KBOB Wafuls | IB Waffulz | BG Waffelz | BO Waaaghfulz | SM Waffels

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

Post#2 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:08 pm

I have multiple objections.

- Grudge (and Hatred) build on being attacked, not on taking damage.
- Changing the way the Ironbreaker mechanic works has implications for the entire class and should only be done if you can demonstrate that Ironbreaker is GENERALLY underperforming, which it is not.

Also, this is a balance topic, and we're not entertaining those until T4, which is why the forum is locked. We have a policy of locking balance topics posted outside of the balance forum.

quler
Posts: 30

Re: Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

Post#3 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:11 pm

No
Coz BG using hate to attack(endlessly spend it)
and IB using grudge to buff himself/friend...
And IB have SO MUCH better skills like 25 parry - and BG have to slot TACTIC to same numbers...
It's a long talk... IB > BG

User avatar
boog
Posts: 343

Re: Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

Post#4 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:26 pm

Azarael wrote:I have multiple objections.

- Grudge (and Hatred) build on being attacked, not on taking damage.
- Changing the way the Ironbreaker mechanic works has implications for the entire class and should only be done if you can demonstrate that Ironbreaker is GENERALLY underperforming, which it is not.

Also, this is a balance topic, and we're not entertaining those until T4, which is why the forum is locked. We have a policy of locking balance topics posted outside of the balance forum.
You are correct they do build when being attacked. I feel rather foolish for just now realizing that. I will concede on the statement I made regarding having higher defensive skills hindering the building of resources.

And I will give you that they are not "GENERALLY" underperforming. But I believe they are not generally under performing because of the necessity of having to utilize Rising Anger. Without using Rising Anger, from my own experiences, leaves you clawing for Grudges in order to be effective.

I don't ask this with any malice behind it but why is it that the you believe the Blackguard mechanic functions as it does that makes it a necessity to function that way so the Blackguard does not generally underperform? If the Blackguard mechanic functioned as the Ironbreakers would they still be able to generally perform as they should? What would allowing the Ironbreaker to build Grudges from dealing damage rather than being attacked directly alter? As it stands with Blackguard little to nothing has to be done in order to guarantee you stay at 100 Hate at all times. Meanwhile for Ironbreaker a valuable tactic slot must be used in order to build resources at the same rate of their "mirror". (I know not any two classes are suppose to be identical mirrors to one another of course :mrgreen: ).

Once again I ask that not out of questioning your authority or knowledge on the game but to learn more about the topic at hand (you are a dev and work with the games innards every day of course I would expect you to know more).
CHSN Wafulz | KBOB Wafuls | IB Waffulz | BG Waffelz | BO Waaaghfulz | SM Waffels

User avatar
boog
Posts: 343

Re: Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

Post#5 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:37 pm

quler wrote:No
Coz BG using hate to attack(endlessly spend it)
and IB using grudge to buff himself/friend...
And IB have SO MUCH better skills like 25 parry - and BG have to slot TACTIC to same numbers...
It's a long talk... IB > BG
From a quick comparison on abilities that require resources to attack on IB to BG they are pretty even.

BG does have buffs for itself and its DP but I do concede, the Ironbreaker does have more buffs available for it and its OF in comparison. Adversely however, the BG has more debuffs to put on its enemies.

I wont speak regarding the parry tactic because while it is nice on both ends, I don't believe the parry tactic is as essential as the Rising Anger tactic is. I could be wrong entirely but it doesn't seem like an equivalent comparison.

I appreciate the points you make. My opinion regarding BG and IB regarding their abilities and mastery trees and what not has been they are pretty fairly balanced in comparison. My biggest question has always been though why are BG allowed to build their resources so much "easier" than IB.
CHSN Wafulz | KBOB Wafuls | IB Waffulz | BG Waffelz | BO Waaaghfulz | SM Waffels

User avatar
boog
Posts: 343

Re: Ironbreaker Resource Building Suggestion

Post#6 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:39 pm

Azarael wrote: Also, this is a balance topic, and we're not entertaining those until T4, which is why the forum is locked. We have a policy of locking balance topics posted outside of the balance forum.

My mistake Az I will cease discussing this topic until a more appropriate time. Thank you for entertaining my thoughts and discussing them :D.
CHSN Wafulz | KBOB Wafuls | IB Waffulz | BG Waffelz | BO Waaaghfulz | SM Waffels

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