[FEEDBACK] On The Times Involved in Keep Sieges

[Telen]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Too long. Ram was just way to easy to kill and without it door takes far too long. Harden ram and it would be fine.

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
Cannons should be to take out oil and enemy weapons. Plonking down a bunch of cannons to speed up door defeats the point of slowing down takes.

3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
Seemed fine.

4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
The window for oil should be longer and oil harder to take down.

5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
At an attack its hard to get people to leave keep as they fear missing loot and its less selfish ones that go that get shafted. Only 6 players left when I said to defend bos and by the time we wiped them the bos had locked. Then siege was abandoned anyway due to regen.

6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Yes

[iapetus]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?

As things are now, yes. Rams currently do not appear to have enough damage output and do not mitigate enough oil damage. Combined with the anemic cannons, bringing a door down does too long; however, I don't really believe this is a function of the spec on the doors. In and of themselves, they're probably fine just the way they are, it's the siege weaponry that needs to be tweaked.

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?

Again, in thier current state no. Cannons need more damage output; I know players believe this will lead to doors consistantly being blown apart by a ten(10) gun cannonade, I however believe this sort of thing can be effectively managed by the cost of cannons. If this becomes an issue, the cost of cannons can go up, and I'm sure we'll see less of them on the battlefield; if not immediately, then over time.

3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?

As I, currently, have only been an besieger recently, and have as yet to have a cannon destroyed from underneath me, I cannot write on this.

4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?

Right now it's fine. As the interactions between oil and ram, and ram and door get ironed out and as players get better at managing those interactions, that cooldown can be cut to about ninety(90) seconds; perhaps even less, if you want to add in cast times to drop a piece of equipment.

5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?

This is something that will, ultimately, come down to the reward(s) for doing so; if there is a suficient defense tick for lifting a siege in this manner then I'm sure players will make it an effective strategy.

6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?

As a besieger, it certainly seemed there was more than sufficient time for the opposition to gather and relieve keep well before the outer door had been breached.

Video Link: http://plays.tv/video/573fbb8ac6d6728d4 ... -defenders

[urururu]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Too soon to tell. Maybe little too long.

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
No comment

3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
No comment

4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Too short, but ok with making both ram and oil more resilient.

5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
No comment

6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
No comment. As attacker seemed lots of times for them to reach keep.

If oil damage is not going to be nerfed then those using RAM should have less damage taken. With the oil going up so often (15+ just on outer?) it can be tough to get off the ram and out of the area on time. Tank using ram in full defense gear taking 3k per tic seems like a bit over the top...

[C4init3]

FEEDBACK

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Door HP seems to be fine, the unreliable siege equipment seems to be a bigger problem (rams)
2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
Did not try, cant say
3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
seemed to be fine
4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
optimal
5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
Now, this is hard. I hate that doors regenerate. BO capturing needs to be a valid strategy, but not through door regeneration. More on that in the Suggetions.
6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Certainly yes.

SUGGESTIONS

There is a big problem with oRvR right now. The lack of keep takes, and consequently lack of rewards sets back all tank and healer class progression, while DPS classes skyrocket with mercenary gear, resulting in support classes being inferior. It affects order more seriously due to the viability of melee WP compared to DOK. So in my opinion, oRvR needs to be sorted out ASAP.
1. Keep door HP regeneration should be discarded, and instead damage reduction should be implemented. Meaning 1 BO taken should result in 10 %, 2 BO in 20 % dmg reduction from all sources, and the value doubled against siege equipment (20 % and 40 % respectively).
2. BO areas should be considered the "same" to the keep area, so if defense tick occurs in keep and you are defending a BO, you are also involved in bag roll
3. Bags should contain tokens as said before, to purchase new accessory.
4. Influence gain should be increased in RvR zones.
5. Finally another so far unaddressed problem is the zerging. A well organized wb have no more a viable strategy to deal with it. The only possible answer to it is to rotate around it, and when you are unlucky to meet it, make the zerg bleed. I have no perfect suggestion for this, but maybe AAO should remove AoE cap from players. If I am correct cap is now set to 9 players. If your realm has AAO of 20 % the cap should be 12, if 40 % 14, and so on.

Thank you for reading.

[Reesh]

I would like to see one thing being implemented regarding BO taking which is strictly connected to door hp regen.

Few different options:
1. Get up and going some sort of region/world alert when at least one champion on a BO is killed, that this location is under attack.
2. Get this alert going when every npc at BO is killed, but, increase the cap time to 2 minutes. Capping then can be stopped only by killing the player doing it.

When the door hp is so substantial, altogether with regen which is pretty high while the other BOs are taken, it's important for the keep attackers to notice and react, instead of loosing too much time.

This role currently should be taken by scouts, but among pugs and the fact that those players won't get any rewards for doing their role, it won't happen.

And also my thoughts, similar to others that already
Contributed in this thread. Oil doing slightly too much dmg, cannons and rams slightly not enough dmg.

[Linkganon]

I'll preface this that I have done a fair amount of keep sieges in T2 and T3 on this server, also a fair amount in live. So I will give my views with this in mind

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Far too long. I suspect the main issue with this is the rams not doing enough damage / breaking too easily / not being able to reliably be replaced. In T2 and to a lesser extent T3 the doors are still viably breakable by hand. It shouldn't be like this in T4, but the answer seems to be to fix the rams. They should be hitting the door for at least 1% on a decent swing, maybe 2% on a near-perfect one.

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
Don't know about T4. It wasn't really viable in lower tiers though. I don't think it should be a way for people to hurt the door. These cannons should be used for people on the wall / enemy siege / oil.

3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
T2 was about right. However, in T4 it took over 5 minutes for a single shot cannon to kill an AoE one on the walls. This felt far too tedious. I suppose with the large amount of siege spots the attackers have they could focus fire on a single one and bring it down faster. It just felt slow for a single enemy cannon to be destroyed by these single shot ones.

4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Seems right. It feels that rams come down too easily however, especially with the astronomical damage from oil. I feel that rams should keep this cooldown but be harder to bring down. Oil felt about right in terms of its health / respawn time. Its damage is far too high in my opinion, however. Needs to be halved at least.

5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
It's too strong. It makes it impossible for the attackers to win if one BO is taken. This is too strong as people are reluctant to leave the siege to save the BOs for fear of being left out of the loot roll. The suggestion would be to allow people to complete the keep siege anywhere on the map, and make capturing the attacker's BOs cause reduced damage to the door. Regen on the door when rams are far too weak is just not viable.

6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Yes, across all tiers. Doors go down very fast in T2 even without a ram, however.

Seeing as T4 at the moment plays exactly as T1, there needs to be an incentive to capture keeps or lock zones. With sieges being so disproportionately hard to attack compared to defend, no one attempts it. And in lower tiers when people do, you being to see the defending side growing as the attacking side shrinks, which I suspect is due to people switching realms to defend.

I don't feel the aoe cannons do too little damage, it felt right across the tiers. I don't think that one cannon should be causing serious issues for the attackers. A full compliment of siege weapons should, and does seem to. I feel the single shot cannons should do more damage to aoe cannons, as I mentioned above.

There is of course the bugs with doors despawning / lords despawning / lords resetting which aren't a decided balance mechanic but in general make siege attacking almost impossible if there is a reasonable amount of defenders. If these aren't immediately fixable it might be worth considering temporarily tailoring the other aspects of siege balance around them to compensate.

EDIT:

I feel I should mention that unless you fix oil damage, you should stop rewarding players with XP / RP / INF for killing people with it. People are purposefully not joining warbands in order to place their own or even hijack other people's oil for their own X/R/I points. The main focus of oRvR should be to complete objectives, not to work against your team mates for personal gain.

[Landaren]

what I would LOVE to see is the BO's be more important

If it could be done, have like dwarf teams spawn at the BO that start like an escort quest. You escort them to the keep and they deploy powder kegs that either:
A deal high damage to the keep door
B increase damage the door takes by X%

[Natherul]

With the last patch, we made several changes to the health of doors at a keep, the damage that rams deal, and the health of all siege weapons. Accordingly, I would like to collect some feedback from the community regarding these changes.

Please share your experiences with keep sieges, and try to cover the following points:

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?

Please try to refrain from complaining about the following known issues:
- Keep Siege vendors are not at every keep for every faction, and do not respawn correctly
- Keep guards will pull through walls.
- AoE cannons (and perhaps Direct Damage cannons) deal lower damage than ideal.

From my very limited testing so far:
1. took way too long to destroy, might might be that sometimes doors would become unattackable and regen (even when defenders had no BOs) was waay to powerful. I would like a system (someone else made the proposal but cant remember name) where BOs does not increase regen but perhaps increase the defensive values of the door (doors still needs a nerf however)

2. Did not test

3. Did not test

4. Seems about right but oil does waay too much dmg on players, I mean when the oil spawns pretty much everyone under it will die before they can even react. One person should not be able to wipe close to an entire WB by placing oil and using it fast... Especially since oil deflection does not seem to work at this time.

5. Did not test as I was attacking.

6. yes, plenty of time. Especially as of the issues from #1.

[navis]

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
Cannons should be to take out oil and enemy weapons.

sounds good to me

[freshour]

is there anyway to make oil damage scale depending on your party/wb size? For instance an entire wb is fighting. One guy leaves party to use oil and get 20 kills and maxes his influence in one sweep. I've seen it happen like 5x.

Oil does too much. That is obvious. Doors have easily 3-4x the hp they should have at the current state of RvR. I'd rather keeps swap like mad then no one do it at all. But seriously, oil needs to be toned down, and much harder to kill. And WL's should NOT be able to pounce to the oil, or upon doing so have everything deleted and they die in real life