Countering zerging in T2/3

[roadkillrobin]

Coz he claimed that there were no way for smaller numbers to deal with larger numbers when about equal skill. Wich there is. The one who got terrain advantage and initive gonna have a massive advantage in the combat. If one side also have prebuilt morales mather a ton. The only time were the greater number gonna have a clear advantage is out in the open face to face with no terrain and no interaction from others. But in reallity theres tons of variables that affect the outcome of a large scale combat.

Im also not talking about a group fighting a warband here. Thats a lost cause coz you don't gonna have the dps output to make it work. Making single groups is for scenarios or ganking. Its not gonna have a impact on the campain. Im talking 3 groups vs 2 warbands and up.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

There aren't if you do not get the difference of wb vs wbs and party vs wb. It's pretty easier in teory if you have 1 wb.

Only first frontal 9 ppl take aoe damage, if you keep the ppl challenged and the recive the aoe on the ppl you want (positioning) and use multiple challenge in good chain you can possibly keep lower forever enemy damages under the point your healer will keep up your tanks forever, also if they try to bomb (and bomb with bw/sorc it's static) you can just split in 2 the wb and kite , that's why aoe snares are so important and you usually have 2x shammy/am x wb (or you should).
Kite to allow morales to load or preserve morales to use them at the right moment to keep push are the keys to face higher numbers than yours.
Currently that's even more effective due the fact that there is not in game anything like the sov morales remove skill.
So when facing higher number you kite, snare , load morales then when they are overextended / los, you put immunity and push, remove their morales if you can and use yours.
So ye can a wb relentlessly push trough 4wbs, yes! can 1 party push through 1 wb. Likely not.( if there is more or less the same skill).

That's all dependant to the aoe max number of target you hit that's 9. 1 party aoe will hit 9 ppl but 1 wb aoe wil hit all the party, now can you see the difference? 4wbs vs 1wb only 9 ppl get hit over 24; 1party vs 1 wb all party get hit under aoe.
So 1 wb can put the same pressure on 1 wb even facing 4 wbs all togheter. Cos the "pressure trade" is still 9 ppl vs 9 ppl .
You can argument that those 6 ppl of the party get get hit by 1wb while 1wb get hit by by 4wbs damage dealers but that's matter only in regard of how much tanks are def cuz if the bomb of multiple bw hit me x100 damage x tick i can stay in the bomb all day long.

To put it simple there will be a point in the game if you use the old itiemization where tank would be dumb as a stone and it dosen't matter how much raw damage you throw at them they wont die under heal. If you keep hit the same tank front line you won't kill anything; dosen't matter how much strengh you put on it( exept 9-10k of morales damages). Because in the end the wb that push with the better positionin will win all the time. Being position pure gameplay it's pretty obvious tell that there are alredy tools to fight zerg to a certain degree that are not spec or number based and so that anyone can use(the main is positioning itself).
Aza talked about aoe cannons but cannons are exatly static aoe and only work in static situation where there is not a real counter to the bigger number some one can put on the field (and you cannot effective split negating the area of effect, which is why it's always less risky play in open field and not in close space where you cannot run or enemy can still deploy every of his wbs efficently in fact negating what close space is used for ) and it's exatly why funnel is such a big thing and in fact break funnel is easier now due to cannons +m4 due to defender being all packed togheter in such small space(they cannot split aka you are takign advantage of the moral type damage of cannons exploiting the main weakness of the static bomb, the positioning).

The biggest weakness of the aoe it's that it's static and you can pretty easily predict the area due to enemy positioning of each bw/sorc you see around, weakness that melee when aoe do not have for exemple. because they can free move around while doing so.

To summ even more:
- order wbs have the advantage off passive stuff and so they should try to close the fight as fast as they can vs destru zerg while destru wb need a bit of time and have to kite a bit first
-guard nerf idea and nerf tank durability are senseless, those are 2 of those elements that keep in check mindless zerg spam buttons.
-that's why aoe was nerfed and capped to 9 ppl cos 8x ppl in wbs are tank
-positioning and mobility in war is important and the main counter to aoe
-the more tanks are harder to kill the easier is fight the zerg with the currently aoe cap
-tools exsist, they are gamepley related and not spec related. They are not going to work 100% of the time as that would be not right they are there as a form of compensation for the zerg inequality but if you face higer number it's your fault/decision and not something it should be normal.
-other tool suggested to fight zerg? damages return stuff such as chosen bane shield, magic damage aura, backlash tactic or bo/bg block channeling which will hit multiple target the more hits you recevie from more ppl.

[Beckstir]

Idea:

When a faction has 200% AAO or more spawn more NPC's to balance it out. For instance, a BO has 5 NPC's, so double that. Similar with keeps.

[Zanilos]

Both of those Kings videos were recorded when the largest organized fights were 1 WB vs 1 WB. Or as like to call it, the pre-turdbloballiance era.

Now it's utterly pointless to run a WB. People on forums complain about zerging while people in game are happy when one forms.

Could we make another guild and sit in keeps funneling til the cows come home. Probably. Would destro then say in chat attacking keeps is pointless and just sit in there keep (porn factory t3 style).
Definitely.

It's not a L2P issue. You just cant focus AoE damage against an organized alliance. Its simply impossible to hit the same 9 people as someone stood 1 foot to your left or right. Including Morales. That means you push everyone. EVERYONE. Including healers into the bomb blob, the dmg you receive is pure RNG and the dmg you do is pure RNG. Then you wait to be **** as 2 WBs+ or some shitty alliance bum rush you. While you simply cannot focus damage.

Again. Community issue. It will never change. Just relax and accept it's a very casual server and be happy.

P.S didn't read Tesqs post.

[Azarael]

This occurs because the target selector on RoR is lazy, and looks for the first X valid targets within the AoE's specified range. I do not know how it handled on live.

[Tesq]

This occur when you build full oriented bomb wb let's say 8x bw if you go with just 1 engi or 0 engi that's the problem, if the target selection it's problmatic aoe kb tank away then pull 9 dps or better 9 healers , or use m4 and push , pull healer then kb other ppl and bomb.--> again positioning, pull em where you want , if you pull 9 ppl behind your tank front lines and wbs get cut in 2 i hardly find how rng will be a problem.
I always saw wb base everything on raw damages lukyly with gear progression classes will became more durable and so wb will need more controll to kill stuff, from t3 days alredy the durability of classes is increased by a lot.

[roadkillrobin]

It becomes a l2p issue when ressisting forces does absolutly nothing to counter the zerg. And it goes back to the basics. 1: They dont run the right specs. 2: They run 6man sc focused groups. 3: Don't communicate within the realm. 4: Don't bother to split the zerg up by attacking Multiple BO's 5: No atempt to doing a propper funnel or any other LoS/Bodyblocking tactics were numbers loose their advvantages. Just waiting at the keep to hopfully get a Defence tick. Maybe l2p is the wrong term. More like Don't give a **** about the long term is a better term for it

[Tesq]

Another issue is the return of the spies just like in live, it may sound fun but it isn't when you try to coordinate something and suddently aao pop due to xrealmers or spies on yor realm that pass info to other side.
You have to do sneaky anything organize in whisp and not anymore in region and t4.

the Pro: it force ppl to play more at alliance level and in group of alliance and by know ppl. Info war work in both way so if you are ready to listen i can tell you a whole bunch of lies.

[roadkillrobin]

This occurs because the target selector on RoR is lazy, and looks for the first X valid targets within the AoE's specified range. I do not know how it handled on live.

So Echosta is pretty much wrong on this one then as example 4 BW stacked upon eachother will basicly hit the same 9 targets within PBAoE spells as they will hit the first 9 targets within range?

[Tesq]

aza do not wrote nearer it wrote valid so it's random maybe, should be the nearer x target btw.