Proc meta

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Proc meta

Post#11 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:23 pm

Of course. That was on the general subject of why SM/BO may be more viable than live.

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Dabbart
Posts: 2251

Re: Proc meta

Post#12 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:36 pm

Admittedly, My only character on destro is a Z and I never played them on Live, so I don't claim to be the best at discussing destro classes. But seriously? Your Meta has 3 DoKs? Don't mean to derail thread on this point, but seriously, there is no "incentive" to carry sham/Z at all? 3 DoKs seem's excessive. Or is that specifically for the Proc discussion, which I don't get as they are healers. You explained the DPS, but really?

On Topic; TW runs slayer/BW as it's "main" 6man. It's all single target, but having a ranged dps(that can AoE, just not that well) is far better than having none when trying to fight Teefz can be quite helpful...

I feel that proc's are like any other facet of WAR. You can take that benefit and customize it to fit with a particular group that all semi-cater to assist it. Regardless of the group meta, having a proc is beneficial. Personally, I don't like to rely on them that much. It's a nice bit of fluff, but I don't feel like it is enough to pressure. That's just a slayer hitting you for over 1k per AA...
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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Proc meta

Post#13 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:57 pm

Azarael wrote:As constant damage skills, BS and ST are highly vulnerable to being weakened by power inflation. This might have something to do with it.
edit: this is in response to all proc damage not just ST/BS, same thing about scaling.. I don't really see IB/BG outscaling BO/SM especially not BO.

As static damage their contribution to overall DPS with power inflation will diminish. But the classes that have these tactics/buffs don't exactly have anything else to run that is going to increase with the power inflation such as AA haste, crit damage multipliers, etc... which scale with better gear. The question I guess would be is a 2nd MDPS going to outscale the sorc/bw and their buffs late game which I don't think will be the case especially with TB being gonzo.

I'm pretty sure this will still stand very strong even in the RR80 environment, and even when bugs are fixed. I actually didn't even know about these bugs and our order group running this feels much stronger than WL/Slayer currently.
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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Proc meta

Post#14 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:02 pm

Dabbart wrote:Admittedly, My only character on destro is a Z and I never played them on Live, so I don't claim to be the best at discussing destro classes. But seriously? Your Meta has 3 DoKs? Don't mean to derail thread on this point, but seriously, there is no "incentive" to carry sham/Z at all? 3 DoKs seem's excessive. Or is that specifically for the Proc discussion, which I don't get as they are healers. You explained the DPS, but really?
Melee train meta same thing, you ran two DoK's because they have a group cleanse which catches ailments, they have group wide cleansing winds M2 (group wide get out of jail free card), good procs/buffs as seen in the OP, and they are extremely tanky/self reliant. there just isn't any real reason to bring a sham/Z in your group.

RP/WP is what people run on order because double WP doesn't bring near as much as double DoK, and RP can get extremely tanky thanks to racial armor tactic.
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Gerv
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Re: Proc meta

Post#15 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:09 pm

Will it not make little difference to power inflation because most classes that already benefit to the power creep with crit damage multiplier and so on are in the groups atm. Only the WH and WE are out.

If the majority of this damage is Corporeal and Spiritual and Elemental, if you have the Winds Impervious set have almost capped resists the damage taken will not go down as gear increases in strength.

It seems this will just become a normal addition to the meta groups with insane proc damage.
Maybe this will lead to on proc absorbs becoming more mainstream to deal with the present proc damage, could this be a viable solution?
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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Proc meta

Post#16 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:12 pm

Don't think procs can proc procs.

About absorb procs, what is there besides the sorc tapping the dark, and item abilities? I guess zealot/RP absorbs don't really count since they aren't really reactionary, well sorc one isn't either but falls into this proc idea for sure.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Proc meta

Post#17 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:13 pm

Gerv wrote: It seems this will just become a normal addition to the meta groups with insane proc damage.
Maybe this will lead to on proc absorbs becoming more mainstream to deal with the present proc damage, could this be a viable solution?
I think so. People under-estimate how much work absorbs are actually doing. Short quick absorbs do a lot of work.

sanii
Posts: 193

Re: Proc meta

Post#18 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:15 pm

From having played quite extensively with procbuilds( i am talking now about bw/sorc procs):

I tried to find out how it worked on live , and it was very difficult finding an appropriate video of a mdps using the proc with proper ui visibility of its applications. The closest i found was this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJgheowSiE ( go to 2:19-2:20 and slow it down) - from this the icd(if it existed which i doubt) was lower then 1s- the sorc most likely didn't run the proc tactic in that video as it was hard to ever see it proc again in a consistent fashion. I would love it if someone has proper videos with visibility of how it worked.

Also i tried to find any patch notes referencing icd , but appart from damage increase/decrease and other mechanics no mentioning of ICD (still doesn't mean there was none)

It has balance implications tho (specifically related to the gear-state of the game and the non-scaling nature of procs) , and is quite powerful atm. , in a similar fashion that bs/st are . It does not make for very interactive gameplay but is different to normal meta and not undefeatable , depending on what kind of setup you are running.


Edit : As a matter of fact, i have just noticed that how in that video that i linked it proced off of a dot 2:52-2:53 (Yer all bleeding now) - which makes me even more curious how it actually worked...
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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Proc meta

Post#19 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:31 pm

@Dabbart

Another thing as well, these procs are unique buffs provided by classes. Shaman/Z core buffs are all things that are covered by chosen auras or somewhat covered by BO (ini). More problems caused by buff stacking and certain classes getting shafted in terms of what they bring to a group because another class that is already quite strong does it already if not better.

For instance resistance buff, you can get it from shaman, Zealot, chosen, and BO. Chosen's is by far the best... and chosen is an extremely solid tank that you would want in virtually every 6 man. This means shaman/Zealot needs to compete against DoK without their group buff even being a factor and they just can't. Rituals are nice but not needed, other ways to pump AP (and DoK has it :^))

One of the things imo driving classes into or out of the meta is specifically their kit's not being as good as some other class due to buffs/debuffs not stacking etc...

Take for instance BG on destro... something I am way too familiar with. If you want to get the most out of a BG in you standard 2-2-2 melee train group you need to not run a mara (lol), you lose a morale pump from either BO/Chosen, you lose either 100% uptime AoE snare, or reliable KD... you start just ripping apart a good group to try and get the most out of a subpar class.


If every class had buffs on the level of covenants/prayers/flames or ruin/frozen touch etc... it would help a lot. Specifically their unique nature which doesn't conflict with other classes. For instance if you could only have one damaging proc active BW/Sorc would be out because you would always be running DoK/WP.
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Eathisword
Posts: 808

Re: Proc meta

Post#20 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:53 pm

Jaycub wrote:...I don't really see IB/BG outscaling BO/SM especially not BO.
Well, in an RR80, no bugs environment, IB would be very good against teams relying on procs, since Runic Shield would absorb most of the procs + Skull thumper + Rend soul on his focus teammate regardless of heal debuff .

Atm, Runic shield bug doesn't absorb melee magic... only casted [well tbf, I don't know if its a bug anymore or a design choice]. All in all though, IB would actually be better in a SL/BW comp, than in a WL/SL one, cause armor debuff. If these proc comps become a thing, IB might get in a better spot than it is now, with WL being this strong.

BG has no chance though. BO/CH are too far ahead to be replaced.
Last edited by Eathisword on Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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