New Shammy Changes

[roadkillrobin]

I think everyone is aware of that, we're talking about it as constructive feedback and what effect it would have on the game if thesee changes would go live.

That is why I said 'A quick note' - A lot of naysayers that do not like it for their personal playstyle that might not know that this option is available to them.

As someone who plays with a shaman that has always played hybrid I can do nothing but thumbs up the changes, works well for roaming, more mobility and more playstyle variants, combined with the knight change seems to offer some good buffs to the hybrid shaman.

Buffs to hybrid/small scale shaman, small nerfs to everything else. You have to take into consideration that not only hybrid Shaman is in a bad state, both dps Shaman and healing Shaman have tons of tons of issues. And is at the bottom of both healers and dps healers. And as the feedback now comes in we see that the boosts for hybrids had a negative effects on the other two allready weak playstyles.

[Morf]

I think ppl need to remember these experimental changes are not meant to fix every shaman/am issue its just to try and improve career mechanics and lifetap potential which imo it has done.

@Noise healing doesnt improve, weaving in ITT or FOTG (which would mean you need to spend 14 points in da green which would nerf your heals and likely at the moment mean no DSU or SIO) isnt viable when facing players who have high damage potential,assist and burst targets down, in small scale 3 man stuff where damage is lower sure you can weave a little but in competitive play or wb play you need to spend gcd's not on 700 ITT heals on a single target but on gheals, clensing, hotting and such, again im not saying the changes suck, i think its an improvement for sure but healing in anything other then small encounters hasnt improved.

[Morf]

@Az

Well, its not a pure buff for dps shamy and i show u why

All i read was this and i will tell you why the experimental mechanics is a buff to dps shamans and i base this purely on group play, ITT heals for more then it did, you can now heal as well as a pure healer when you have multiple dps stacks infact you can save your group from wiping better then you could as a heal shammy (without fm up) if you have multiple dps stacks, it isnt a buff to dps output but a buff to healing potential.

[Zanilos]

Triple shatter from kotbs - then your top hot in the top of tree with mitigation is gone - cleanse tactic, shattered - the Gheals from shaman are so inferior to what a zealot can bring to a party. Shamans have nothing, except sticky feetz.
So what is the point then of running a shaman? Restorative burst is mandatory for a shaman - you do have run away, but 20% is nothing compared to a 50% snare, you are not getting away, which were a big part of the shaman on live, getting away and then healing. you dry up SO quick which is the main issue with the shaman - were a lot better with the DSU being classified as directheal, to proc RB.
One block/disrupt on the AP drain, and you are going to be sat with no healing when AP pots are on CD.

At least the AM get 50% ap cost reduction, basicly everytime they cast a groupheal - shaman don't so again they will go dry in no time.

Then the all mighty funnel essence, which makes the AM super strong in terms of healing compared to a shaman.

I played a shaman on live, 1 AM with a clue masking an AP drain on a shaman, dead group.

If you are moving towards the shaman being more of a hybrid, and not a healing archtype, then disregard the post - but as it stands, no one wants a shaman in a proper party, and that will not change even if it's a hybrid - as it's just not viable.

If this guy Isn't listened to, then Noisestorm is... then I don't even know what to say. Good players who know what they are doing > People in Order Biased with Mod tag.

[Ghostweed]

@Morf

Yes, its a buff to healing output of dps shammy and lifetap is stronger.

But if u want to lifetap to be usefull, u need a tactic slot for cast time reduction (and still spend 3GCD for cast) + spend points in mastery
So u have to sacrifice sticky feetz or strongest toughness debuff in game.

IMO not worth it for the price of mentioned stuff and no insta casts

I admit that I heavnt played much under new mech., need more time and more different battles to fight.

To be constructive: good all around buff for shamy would be ap cost reduction across the board or undefendable ap leech.

[noisestorm]

Triple shatter from kotbs - then your top hot in the top of tree with mitigation is gone - cleanse tactic, shattered - the Gheals from shaman are so inferior to what a zealot can bring to a party. Shamans have nothing, except sticky feetz.
So what is the point then of running a shaman? Restorative burst is mandatory for a shaman - you do have run away, but 20% is nothing compared to a 50% snare, you are not getting away, which were a big part of the shaman on live, getting away and then healing. you dry up SO quick which is the main issue with the shaman - were a lot better with the DSU being classified as directheal, to proc RB.
One block/disrupt on the AP drain, and you are going to be sat with no healing when AP pots are on CD.

At least the AM get 50% ap cost reduction, basicly everytime they cast a groupheal - shaman don't so again they will go dry in no time.

Then the all mighty funnel essence, which makes the AM super strong in terms of healing compared to a shaman.

I played a shaman on live, 1 AM with a clue masking an AP drain on a shaman, dead group.

If you are moving towards the shaman being more of a hybrid, and not a healing archtype, then disregard the post - but as it stands, no one wants a shaman in a proper party, and that will not change even if it's a hybrid - as it's just not viable.

If this guy Isn't listened to, then Noisestorm is... then I don't even know what to say. Good players who know what they are doing > People in Order Biased with Mod tag.

Whats that even supposed to mean? He talks about 50% from Wildhealing, while healing on mechanic basically gives you a free WildHealing anyways (40% ap reduction)? Hes talking about Funnel Essence, which is currently not even competetive against BoH/BE? Triple Shatter got removed on top of this. I simply dont get what people even want, but apparantly for whatever unknown reasons they wish for the mechanic to remain a pile of dogshit. Cmon guys

[bloodi]

@Noise healing doesnt improve,.

The fact that in those dead times where you couldnt do anything before you are able to debuff/dot and they get improved values, proves this is wrong.

Both aspects are buffed in their own way and they surely outmatch the nerfs in **** like "i cant aoe push back instantly"

[roadkillrobin]

Have you toght of adding dps stacks to the follow abillties:

Archmage: Drain Magic, Mistress of the March, Rain Lord
Shamman: Yer Not So Bad, Stikky Feetz, Yer a Weakling

That would help healing build with the experimental mechanic.

[Fantapants]

Triple shatter from kotbs - then your top hot in the top of tree with mitigation is gone - cleanse tactic, shattered - the Gheals from shaman are so inferior to what a zealot can bring to a party. Shamans have nothing, except sticky feetz.
So what is the point then of running a shaman? Restorative burst is mandatory for a shaman - you do have run away, but 20% is nothing compared to a 50% snare, you are not getting away, which were a big part of the shaman on live, getting away and then healing. you dry up SO quick which is the main issue with the shaman - were a lot better with the DSU being classified as directheal, to proc RB.
One block/disrupt on the AP drain, and you are going to be sat with no healing when AP pots are on CD.

At least the AM get 50% ap cost reduction, basicly everytime they cast a groupheal - shaman don't so again they will go dry in no time.

Then the all mighty funnel essence, which makes the AM super strong in terms of healing compared to a shaman.

I played a shaman on live, 1 AM with a clue masking an AP drain on a shaman, dead group.

If you are moving towards the shaman being more of a hybrid, and not a healing archtype, then disregard the post - but as it stands, no one wants a shaman in a proper party, and that will not change even if it's a hybrid - as it's just not viable.

If this guy Isn't listened to, then Noisestorm is... then I don't even know what to say. Good players who know what they are doing > People in Order Biased with Mod tag.

Whats that even supposed to mean? He talks about 50% from Wildhealing, while healing on mechanic basically gives you a free WildHealing anyways (40% ap reduction)? Hes talking about Funnel Essence, which is currently not even competetive against BoH/BE? Triple Shatter got removed on top of this. I simply dont get what people even want, but apparantly for whatever unknown reasons they wish for the mechanic to remain a pile of dogshit. Cmon guys

I apologise for the length of this response, but I have to address your equivalence of Wild Healing and the mechanic changes, as they're just not on the same level at all. If I want to retain the bonuses for my heals, I need to use an equal or greater number of offensive casts. Those casts cost both AP and time. I'll show you with some numbers.

For context about me, since this is my first post on the forums: I played a shaman for a very long time on live (along with much less played magus and WH), and I was one of the first rr80 shamans (while 80 was the cap). Things changed away from the state I played in (bunch o' waagh lost its stun, self punts were removed, etc) and there's been some other changes made by the RoR team since as well, of course. I have a 42 shammy on RoR and have spent quite a bit of time trying out the new mechanics (though not yet with the latest iteration with changes to the lifesteal affect).

For the following, I'm assuming there's targets in range for both offensive and defensive, that there's no disrupts to waste AP/time, no interrupts or pushbacks. I also assume that each cast begins immediately after the prior cast finishes and that we stop on the first cast that finishes at or after the 10 second mark (assuming this is just a 10 second window of an ongoing fight). I'll also assume that there's a crit every 10 seconds (a reliable 25% crit chance) for the AP tactics to work from, though won't put in Restorative Burst since both classes can have it. I also have assumed the worst case for the AM that the lifesteal doesn't count as a healing ability for Wild Healing.

Now before anyone points out that spamming group heals is not the best way to do things, all the other heals are faster, which means an increased cast rate which means more regular procs of Wild Healing, with no equivalent shaman-only benefit.

Scenario A: I just cast group heals and ignore the mechanic
0s: Gather Round (65AP)
2.5s: Gather Round (65AP)
5s: Gather Round (65AP)
7.5s: Gather Round (65AP)
10s: cast finishes

Total healing: 4 * Gather Round
Total AP for Shaman/AM (w/o AP tactics): 260
Total AP for AM (w Wild Healing): 140

Scenario B: I alternate casts between Gork and Mork to maintain a bonus for heals (I'll assume a group heal and a direct lifesteal for maximum instant heal output)
0s: I'll Take That (30AP)
2s: Gather Round (65*0.6 = 39 AP)
3.5s: I'll Take That (30AP)
5.5s: Gather Round (65*0.6 = 39 AP)
7s: I'll Take That (30AP)
9s: Gather Round (65*0.6 = 39 AP)
10.5s: cast finishes

Total healing: 3.75 * Gather Round (ignoring the penalty for the caster) + 2 * I'll Take That
Total AP for Shaman/AM (w/o AP tactics): 207
Total AP for AM (w Wild Healing and AP cost modifiers stack): 150
Total AP for AM (w Wild Healing and AP cost modifiers do not stack): 189

So, best case for shammies (B), they're still behind in AP terms, spending 10% more than their AM friends in the AM worst case (B). In best case vs best case (shaman B, AM A), the shaman spends 47% extra AP to gain slightly more healing (assuming that there's no overheal on the defensive target for I'll Take That). Fury of da Green I haven't used here since the AoE component's range always made it situational at best, even with the group change (which I think is a pretty great idea).

If an AM spends large sections of time not casting heals and doesn't get the benefit of Wild Healing, then they aren't under the kind of AP stress that we're comparing anyway.

On a separate note, my opinion about the mechanic changes so far:

1. As pure DPS: mixed pros/cons, you can frontload 5 hots on yourself to get faster/better offensive spells for better frontloaded burst, but have less utility when kiting and much less effective for healing yourself. Utility like the instant res for a DPS focused AM/Shaman no longer exists.
2. As pure heals: dubious benefit, given it requires targets for a relatively small heal increase (and for shaman a 20% AP reduction in the best case). Ignoring the mechanic has no real cost.
3. As a true hybrid: I think it is improved slightly in terms of output numbers for both DPS and heals, but at the cost of less responsiveness in flipping the mechanic, which to me was always the attraction of playing a hybrid. If the cast speed bonus was better, I think that would be less of an issue (maybe at the cost of 2 points of mechanic or less of an AP reduction).

Again, sorry for the length.

[Morf]

The fact that in those dead times where you couldnt do anything before you are able to debuff/dot and they get improved values, proves this is wrong.

Both aspects are buffed in their own way and they surely outmatch the nerfs in **** like "i cant aoe push back instantly"

If you fight players who guard, assist and burst targets down (non pug/casual nubs) you have these options, spam ITT which before todays patch healed for around 700(yet to play since the patch) and has the benefit of being useable on the move, use a group heal which even when healdebuffed heals for more then a single ITT(granted you can use more then 1 ITT for a group heal) which also has the benefit of healing your whole group not just 1 target, or hot and cleanse, a cleanse that could possibly cleanse a healdebuff or something like ID which can do significant damage to not just a single player but everyone and has the benefits of damage procs, gcd's are not something u want to use willy nilly in competitive play.

Its all situational and as i have said i like the new changes, its an improvement for sure, it doesnt address the healing issues shaman still suffer from and i dont believe it was meant to or that lifetap ever will, what im disagreeing with is that healing is now viable in group play and has significantly improved (for healers not dps), it hasnt.



just to clarify the changes are a buff and an improvement, in no way at all imo are these changes worse then the old mechanics.