Changelog 15/11/16

[dur3al]

One way you might consider nipping the whole "straight up melee class that can offheal when needed" bit is to make Divine Fury and Fanaticism/Murderous Intent reduce the healing portion of their lifetaps as well. No DPS WP/DoK is going to play without +25% damage and 10% crit and parry, but at the same time slotting them will impose a 45% penalty to their healing output.

Something along these lines yeah, would be nice because you'd free up a tactic slot if the DoK don't want to be "fully" dps and more into a sort of hybrid build. This plus I'd also like to see considerations of my previous suggestion about nerfing the range of the life-tap skills to affect only people around him, so if melee doks really want to go into an off-heal mode for people around him, he could go Vitality (with nerfed healing tap abilities), and if he wants to off-heal someone far from him, he needs to go Tenacity - improving communication skills and awareness, and punishing mistakes.

[dur3al]

One way you might consider nipping the whole "straight up melee class that can offheal when needed" bit is to make Divine Fury and Fanaticism/Murderous Intent reduce the healing portion of their lifetaps as well. No DPS WP/DoK is going to play without +25% damage and 10% crit and parry, but at the same time slotting them will impose a 45% penalty to their healing output.

The healing output itself is a drawback, using SR/TE not effective use of the stance, using DA/RS you are cutting your damage significantly the drawbacks were already built in.

Please explain. By using the stance effectively you mean switching covenants when you need extra heals (for yourself or your group)? This is like saying marauders are being "effective" switching from savagery to brutality to use guillotine in a target with health below 50%..... This is normal game-play.. and what happened with this change is that you considerably buffed dps doks/wps in roles and ways they couldn't before, now they can potentially be the best jack-of-all-trades if played correctly and with a group supporting them - please... if you disagree, debunk my post in the previous pages where I explained why and how.
The main point of these changes, as far as I could gather, was to make a healing spec DoK/WP not be a complete back-line healer like others while having huge survival, having them being an "ez mode" class with low drawbacks - and not to buff dps dok/wps... perhaps dps WPs needed some love, but certainly not dps doks, and since I'm guessing the changes were mirrored in both classes I'm afraid the issue happens on both of them.

Let me just add (and to my previous post too) that dps doks never even stacked armor anyway, so there literally no drawback anyways to them..

[dur3al]

What are you talking about? Are you just looking to be annoying or just foolish? StMicheal was talking about DPS which in AB EX means Righteousness/Celerity and as I clearly said using English the drawbacks to this position is built in, you use SR/TE you have no damage bonus, you use DA/RS your damage decreases, all abilities are defendable by normal means too, its only in devotion/vitality that the melee heals are able to avoid being parried/blocked.

Its not a drawback at all, because before they didn't had access to having their stats turning from strength to willpower (depending if they needed to dps or to heal), not needing to spend a tactic slot for aoe detaunt, now all it takes is to correctly use the cooldowns from the covenants depending on the situation, its a terrific buff if you ask me.

Regarding DPS WP, they were an absolute joke as was the Wrath tree and DPS Dok functioned straddling the trees and could easily pump out as much healing as they could damage which they can no longer do. When you say things like "Im guessing" and show a complete lack of understanding it can only mean you havent bothered to read the patch notes because its all right there and I would strongly advise you to take time to read them or take out your own DoK and try them yourself because I for one have better things to do than to read out the patch notes for you because you want a individual set of notes for some unknown reason.

As I mentioned earlier I've played only 1 day with the changes on my WL against melee doks and healer doks so I'm basing my comments on them, but the part where they can become a super good off-healer now while still having access to all the core healing skills & having a huge pool of willpower and with a simple prayer switch still remains, I haven't seen any decent structured comment regarding this yet to contradict my statement.

Let me help you as things seem to be flying over your head, the "point" to this was to make all spec trees viable which you are welcome to assume is a intent for "balance"

I get that, but you did it so while inadvertently breaking balance as I mentioned earlier. I've no problems with that, and I'm here merely giving you feedback, if you consider my feedback complete bullshit since "all the points" are "flying over my head" please say so so I'll refrain from posting in a constructive way anymore.

and just to help you get things in perspective because Im an magnanimous kind of guy DPS doks are easier to put down on my WH because its no longer dot dot TE spam they have incentive to spec torture and to use torture abilities and are reluctant to use RS unless they have to because it cuts their dps output.

Just because you're killing bad or pug players don't prove or help prove any point. The very same thing happened with engineers changes, everyone felt they were Justified until we started running a 4 man premade with them... it didn't take long for players to come to forums and complain about this and that regarding engineers, even causing balance changes that were quickly overturned within hours.

[Stmichael1989]

Torque, I understand the point you're making in that a DPS WP/DoK cannot be both damage and healing at the same time. What I was pointing out is that a DPS WP/DoK can switch from fully functional melee DPS class to a very good backup group healer at will. Given that the two tactics which reduce healing output have no negative effect on lifetaps, the only drop off from a DPS specced WP to a melee healing WP is a 40% reduction to willpower based heals, which are only supplementary in this case.

No other class has that kind of versatility, not even the other healing classes. It stands to reason that being a full DPS spec WP/DoK should prevent you from being truly effective at group healing just from switching prayers/covenants.

[Stmichael1989]

Something else to consider on the other side of the coin. While the numbers are good right now, SR/DA are barely affected by crits. Again, this isn't an issue yet since the non-crit heal values are still enough to put out incredible amounts of healing, but it will cause an issue with scaling later on when gear gets better. Something to consider later on.

[Morf]

Ok so after a few days playing with and against players using the experimental changes i still tend to think the changes are way to drastic.
You now have the option of being a dps with the burst of a wl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhOWGRVpdqA (how the feedback from this wasnt its a bit much idk) add a tough and armor debuff 2k crit ? now i could kind of see this being not so bad due to mobility of dps wp/dok however when you also have a speed boost while using prayer of righteousness , have the best lifetap skill in the game (divine assault/rend soul) which is now undefenable and also have the option of instantly changing to the best healer in the game or a being a tank (tank being devotion/vitality with aoe detaunt and undefendable lifetap heals), you now have a jack of all trades being able to do everything with a click of a button and a 30 sec cooldown. I hated how in ESO you could go from having a really good healer to a really good dps with the click of a button, this is what it feels like with the recent changes to dok/wp.

The changes are to much, call me an old timer, me nostalgia whatever but i feel small changes instead of large complex changes would have been alot better, dps dok was fine in terms of balance, the changes needed were to dps wp and backline heal wp/dok .
While there are alot of "i really like these changes" ofc ppl are going to like being stronger and even more so in the case of a class/spec which is mainly played to be a self sufficient class with capabilities of going up against odds of 1v3, this is the reason why most played the class, the promise of being able to take on multiple players at once and win.

Once again i can only tip my hat in terms of effort and the thought going into these changes i have the utmost respect for everyone working on the game but i would prefer the issues with dok/wp pre experimental changes to be addressed directly instead of a wide complex changes allowing them to do everything without the need to respec or change gear sets.

Alot of players are starting to lose the nostalgia feeling from the game and starting to see this as a new game, while i can understand why this would be laughed off 99% of players are old war players not looking for a new game but the game they played years ago with the odd improvement here and there.

[BrockRiefenstahl]

Alot of players are starting to lose the nostalgia feeling from the game and starting to see this as a new game, while i can understand why this would be laughed off 99% of players are old war players not looking for a new game but the game they played years ago with the odd improvement here and there.

Cool, now I feel like a snowflake being one out of 1% who actually likes the rebalance of a completely unbalanced (but still charming) game.
I totally understand your post but not your "panic-mode" Its experimental. The basic-construct is done, the numbers can be tweaked if really needed. Thats how I see the whole situation.

[dur3al]

*snip*

Wall of text arguing and trying to set one staff member on the other, take a day off from the forums and take your dok out for a spin

[Azarael]

The post before it disappeared was:

Spoiler:

First of all I'm not presuming who you kill or do not kill, but as I highlighted your quote above, you said that you've killed players easily because they were reluctant to use skills and stances at their disposal, that equals bad play.. which equals bad players, or inexperienced players, or pug players, etc. I wasn't poking at you at all, but if they had skills at their disposal which would make them survive and they didn't use, because they were "reluctant", then it was their own fault - For example, its like in a 6v6 fight you did not use potions at your disposal because you were reluctant and wanted to save them for later, but it doesn't matter because you died, its just bad play, there is no possible reason for not having used the damn potions. That's why I said either bad players or pug players.

Your posts here are completely non constructive because you seem to be steadfastly refusing to read the patch notes, you are peddling nothing but hyperbole and false information which is sad because you have a high RR dok you could be testing on and actually be giving real, useful feedback if you were so inclined.

I would honestly like confirmation by Azarael on this, or else why would've he posted:

I knew this would end up being a problem. I'll think of some way to kill it.

If my post is so "completely non constructive" why is it that it does seem Azarael understood my points and posted the above, and from what I can read from the new patch notes thread done right after our discussion, he does changes that goes in the direction to address the issue that I stated previously - bare in mind I stated this after only 1 day of playing while all your testers had weeks to test? I played with my dok with the .ab ex in one scenario before switching to order.

@Azarael, if I'm wrong or have my concerns miss-placed please just tell me and I'll gracefully acknowledge, I don't care.

How come I'm doing nothing but "hyperbole and false information" if the Project Leader manages to discuss with me in a formal, normal way with arguments back and forth without resorting to "forum warnings" every time I contradict him?
Now I've to deal with being **** threatened every time I'm one of the few who tries to argue in a formal manner backing up my points and opinion trying to explain as much as I can (check my post at the Engineer Cannon Smash thread) just because you have the "power" to give me forum warnings and threaten to ban me if this is not the "last time"? Why? Because I'm actually giving feedback?

PS: I'm not the one saying I'm a "magnanimous kind of guy", I mean who even says that?

PS2: Reading Morfee's post - and I believe he is a respectable player in the community - I think you can see that my comments were not "false information" since I'm not the only one pointing this factor.

And yes, the problem to which I was referring was mDPS WP/DoK being capable of doing too much healing when switching into Devotion/Vitality and potentially mheal WP/DoK dealing too much damage by using off skills from Grace/Sac and Wrath/Torture. I did intend to rework Divine Fury, Fanaticism and Murderous Intent to debuff all heals, and was looking into the idea of using 1/2 damage + undefendable for all skills in Grace, as they're all buff/heal skills to support the party and it would make some sense.

[peterthepan3]

And yes, the problem to which I was referring was mDPS WP/DoK being capable of doing too much healing when switching into Devotion/Vitality and potentially mheal WP/DoK dealing too much damage by using off skills from Grace/Sac and Wrath/Torture. I did intend to rework Divine Fury, Fanaticism and Murderous Intent to debuff all heals, and was looking into the idea of using 1/2 damage + undefendable for all skills in Grace, as they're all buff/heal skills to support the party and it would make some sense.

Those suggestions seem perfectly reasonable and would definitely help to further reduce the synergy currently available between melee healing and DPS.