White Lion Pet damage.

[kweedko]

I never killed a Zealot in 2 GCD, but well, most Zealot can heal.

But thats not the point..... and I am sorry for pun.... well not really but i am polite enough to pretend to be.^^

The point is, the white lion has already some pretty heavy drawbacks, as every white lion can tell you

1. There is the pretty high AP cost. you had about 1 or 1.75 rotations to kill the enemy and with the last skill of the second rotation you had to get out or you will stand there completely drained of AP and you will inevitably be toast.

2. On almost every of your good skills you have a 10 sec cooldown... that means you have to kill within one rotation or you will overstay and you will be toast.

3 Depending on your specc, you pet did 1/3 to 50% of the damage.... and as we all know your pet is highly unreliable and one big counterplay.... make a mistake there and you are toast.

Yeah I only have a RR of 44. If I had 50 I had armor debuff and healdebuff and could kill healer.... but it doesnt change the rest of my comment, which you so gracefully ignored.^^

So lets talk outside those destro and order position we seem to be trapped in and about the mechanichs which I tried to elaborate above.

1.Ap problem is everybody problem, some classes more some classes less, on live there was kmenera which help you a bit, and don't forget that with more renown ranks you got bigeer ap pool.(on off also was a ojira which help everybody kite you or yor pet, here on ROR dev think this two rare talismans are OP and looks like we neer get them here, same with quick escape prock)

2. Don't think that nobody got a cd on their skills except lions.

3. On live there was time where lions pet's oneshoot you with brutal pounce and lion frenzy + to that there was unlimited ap for every classes at the same time, then dev's nerf both of that, and that was right cause noone should kill noone with 2 gcd instant skills, without preparation. I can tell you on off sever pets done the same shitty damage - here we got lot of time with pets that can kill you in 10 sec if you don't do anyting, and lot's of classes can't kill you in that time why sould some pet be better than the whole caharacter.

[Theseus]

I never killed a Zealot in 2 GCD, but well, most Zealot can heal.

But thats not the point..... and I am sorry for pun.... well not really but i am polite enough to pretend to be.^^

The point is, the white lion has already some pretty heavy drawbacks, as every white lion can tell you

1. There is the pretty high AP cost. you had about 1 or 1.75 rotations to kill the enemy and with the last skill of the second rotation you had to get out or you will stand there completely drained of AP and you will inevitably be toast.

2. On almost every of your good skills you have a 10 sec cooldown... that means you have to kill within one rotation or you will overstay and you will be toast.

3 Depending on your specc, you pet did 1/3 to 50% of the damage.... and as we all know your pet is highly unreliable and one big counterplay.... make a mistake there and you are toast.

Yeah I only have a RR of 44. If I had 50 I had armor debuff and healdebuff and could kill healer.... but it doesnt change the rest of my comment, which you so gracefully ignored.^^

So lets talk outside those destro and order position we seem to be trapped in and about the mechanichs which I tried to elaborate above.

1.Ap problem is everybody problem, some classes more some classes less, on live there was kmenera which help you a bit, and don't forget that with more renown ranks you got bigeer ap pool.(on off also was a ojira which help everybody kite you or yor pet, here on ROR dev think this two rare talismans are OP and looks like we neer get them here, same with quick escape prock)

2. Don't think that nobody got a cd on their skills except lions.

3. On live there was time where lions pet's oneshoot you with brutal pounce and lion frenzy + to that there was unlimited ap for every classes at the same time, then dev's nerf both of that, and that was right cause noone should kill noone with 2 gcd instant skills, without preparation. I can tell you on off sever pets done the same shitty damage - here we got lot of time with pets that can kill you in 10 sec if you don't do anyting, and lot's of classes can't kill you in that time why sould some pet be better than the whole caharacter.

First, the most people arent MDPS. Second, I damitted that damage was to high before, even as I doubt that any pet could kill with2 attacks.... the highest pet crit on my pet was 600... if you only have 1200 hp in t4 something is terribly wrong. The problem is, that the pet now cntribute almost nothing if you look on my screens. there is almost no damage... and that is absolutely ridiculous in my book, as you dont need a pet class if the pet cant do real damage.

[Natherul]

Just wanted to add that a pet class can have a pet that does close to no damage if the pet brings something else in the form of utility (a pull or whatever).

Also keep in mind that no matter what it does in damage compare it to in live when I had a chosen tank and I would hit a WL player for around 70 dmg with a skill (though I was pretty much impossible to kill as well, taking about 30 dmg a hit from a decent WL).

Not saying what you say is not an issue, I dont play order even so I dont know about this particular issue but just thought Id say this as a comparison. Its totally something that I will look into though

[impra]

You cant compare live characters at all, a good WL player was running defensive sovereign reducing his dmg a lttle but increasind the survival a lot so thats not the point.

point is the WL a character is player and pet where the dmg was 66:34 player:pet.

this way you could shut down a WL very easy by killing the pet in brainless aoe. moreso some special moves did need a pet to be on your target.

Now if the dmg of the pet is massively reduced the overall dmg is serverly nerfed.

All those urban legends of clothwearers going down to 2 hits of a WL pet belong to the realm of desinformation. No serious WL player wants a pet which is insta gibbing other players but running with rudolph the red nosed lion inst fun either. running loner tactic removes a lot of options from your playsyle. And no having a pet for 1 circus trick aka pull doesnt qualify either.

[Geordy]

If I may: to me it is obvious that the changes in question were introduced mainly to bring down the SH superpowers a little. Rightfully so I might add. After this all other pets needed to be brought in line out of a sense for balance or even fairness. The problem now arises that we need to be a bit more careful in equalizing the pets.

Out of the four petclasses we have (mainly) 3 ranged pets and only the WL consistantly uses a melee pet. Yes the patch did make a distinction between the two types by giving the melee pet double the amount of autoattack dmg. But you know what? 2x0 is still 0. Nobody is going to care for 48dps on them. Ranged in this game is so ridiculously superior to melee that you need to do more than simply doubling the damage. It has to do with positioning, where the frontline is, having to enter the "danger zone" and on top of that a considerable delay in when the hurt begins.

I like the idea of ramping up the lion's utility but frankly I dont see that being the solution. Because the utility that really matters - like maybe stuns, silences, knockdowns and the like - they trigger immunities at times that are completely out of your control if the pet delivers them. And while snare is nice it is so prevalent that you honestly dont need a pet for it, it's everywhere. One thing that might work is continued interruption, it bypasses immunities completely - the lion has one ability already that attacks in rapid succession. But it is too little just one ability every x long seconds. If you could somehow make it hard for the target to cast that would count as good utility.

But lets assume thats not going to happen the only thing that brings the pet back to being meaningful is - and here we return to where we started - the damage. Looking at all the possibilities I come to the conclusion that the way to make the lion worth the enemy's attention once more is to make it able to kill you. And honestly I think that's fair! It takes time for it to travel the distance, it is succeptible to all CC, it can be defended against normally and it can be killed. Hence my appeal to you: reconsider improving on the lion's battle prowess.

P.S.: Im exclusively addressing the lion here since the SH has ranged options.

[kweedko]

You cant compare live characters at all, a good WL player was running defensive sovereign reducing his dmg a lttle but increasind the survival a lot so thats not the point.

point is the WL a character is player and pet where the dmg was 66:34 player:pet.

this way you could shut down a WL very easy by killing the pet in brainless aoe. moreso some special moves did need a pet to be on your target.

Now if the dmg of the pet is massively reduced the overall dmg is serverly nerfed.

All those urban legends of clothwearers going down to 2 hits of a WL pet belong to the realm of desinformation. No serious WL player wants a pet which is insta gibbing other players but running with rudolph the red nosed lion inst fun either. running loner tactic removes a lot of options from your playsyle. And no having a pet for 1 circus trick aka pull doesnt qualify either.

66:33 never was that after the lionfury, brutalpounce nerf, on live they done crappy damage and with better gear it was even crappier

Problem not in the pet damage problem is in tactics tied to pet present, if remove that tieing wl get lot more viable options too spec and build. Like example you can go loner + crit tactic spec - advantage - more damage - disadvantage no brutal pounce no fetch for you.

And about legends, wanna try i got my zeal and can try it with you (what damage you do now) maybe problem is in you?

[Natherul]

Also keep in mind that ALL pet dmg was bugged and not working correctly as it was using a 100 dps wep, as I stated previously I will look into this with the rest of the team in the case of both SH and WL, but the bugged pet code had to be fixed so if this "nerf" came as a side effect and will need to be investigated.

And ofc a lot of this game can be compared to what live was, its still the same game but its has had some balance changes that makes a LOT of difference sure, but its still the same game.

EDIT: please note that I in no way mean that live was balanced, just saying what the case was back then.

[kweedko]

Also keep in mind that ALL pet dmg was bugged and not working correctly as it was using a 100 dps wep, as I stated previously I will look into this with the rest of the team in the case of both SH and WL, but the bugged pet code had to be fixed so if this "nerf" came as a side effect and will need to be investigated.

And ofc a lot of this game can be compared to what live was, its still the same game but its has had some balance changes that makes a LOT of difference sure, but its still the same game.

EDIT: please note that I in no way mean that live was balanced, just saying what the case was back then.

zeal in dd spec crit most of his skills about 600 dmg and pet hiting same number, ofcourse there was something wrong.

[blaqwar]

Just wanted to add that a pet class can have a pet that does close to no damage if the pet brings something else in the form of utility (a pull or whatever).

Naturally a pet class can have a pet that provides utility only, but not White Lions. The scope of what they are meant to accomplish is very narrow, it's basically kill as fast as possible. If a WL doesn't have the damage to kill anything utility becomes completely irrelevant as other careers bring more and better. The soultion then is to drop the utility in exchange for more dmg (using Loner or just buffing the damage the player himself does), making the career even more one-dimensional. Something the devs have been trying to avoid and remedy in regards to live afaik (DoK/WP changes).

I completely disagree that WLs can be a pet class with no damage on the pet, at least not without severe changes to the current state of the career, possibly turning it into something completely different, possibly breaking the current semi-balanced state.

[blaqwar]

zeal in dd spec crit most of his skills about 600 dmg and pet hiting same number, ofcourse there was something wrong.

And the possibility of there being something wrong with DPS Zealots escapes you? Perhaps they're not the best DPS because the DPS aspect has been ignored by Mythic for pretty much the game's whole lifespan (the glowing hands of doom do not count, they were a bandaid that failed)?

Not saying the pet damage was balanced, it needed a fix, I'm pointing out your logic is extremely flawed.