Spoiler:
No.Dabbart wrote:@dur3al Well I still disagree with your breakdown of why ONLY MDPS can use detaunts, for the reasoning I already put. But that brings up an interesting point. Guard doesn't stack with detaunt, can't test anymore, but did detaunt have any effect on WP/DoK while under a guard?
Fine mate, lets then pick the situation where the melee dps is unguarded as the main example for balancing (where he will die within 3 globals anyway), or when a player (melee DoK in this case) picks the wrong target, and lets use those situations to dictate what is, what isn't ,a counter for that specific class.Dabbart wrote:You're theory crafting particular situations to fit your arguement. Then insulting peoples ability and intelligence. That's what I'm reading anyways.
While at it, lets go ahead and determine balance for the situations where players do not use their skills when they should. Perfect. Great balance we will achieve, much awesome such wow.
I'm done with this topic since you're just picking on something I said for the sake of arguing, all the while not really debunking my point that its an unreal & ineffective as a proper counter measure. By all means, keep detaunting a healer if you want though.
I'd like to give my 2 cents also on what Zumos/roadkill and Aza argument.Azarael wrote:Now we're getting into the tail wagging the dog.
All I read here is: thanks for all the free work you did resurrecting the game. We'll be nice to you if and when we feel like it, and you'd better be grateful for that, but you'd better not think you have any right to do what you want with the game, because it's about what we want and what we will tolerate, and our bars are set very low.
Absolutely vile. DoK/WP playing to concept is the price I ask, and I am not so much of a doormat that I will disregard all the time spent working on this project and allow that to be blocked by people who do not, in fact, work on the project, because muh nostalgia.
Really, I can't emphasise it enough. Vile. You benefit from free work. Why on earth do you think I'm going to have even the smallest of my actions constrained by traditionalism for traditionalism's sake? Get over it. I'll accept criticism for causing imbalance but I will not for one second accept being criticised simply for the act of having made a change. This project made it clear a while back that the aim is to make progress, not to allow you and yours to allow traditionalism and nostalgia to block everything you don't like.
You can save your responses as well, because I'm setting out how things are, and I'm sure as hell not interested in wasting any more of my breath against "muh nostalgia".
First of all, I think all of us players are grateful with all the efforts done by the staff to keep this server running. Because we enjoy playing this game. As it was pointed out a lot of times, we are not allowed to donate money to some-how help you guys, but I'm sure if we could, a lot of people would do it to support the project. With that being said, what we can effectively do to help is to actively report bugs when we find them and besides that, we can't do anything else besides play the game & try to be friendly and welcoming to the community in order to help it grow. Reminding us all the time how much effort is being done by the development team vs of the community seems to not be good to anyone as we all understand this, even if you believe some people don't.
Now comes the part where some confusion happens: When I first heard about Return of Reckoning, I was very happy since I did enjoy the game very much, but my first general impression I had, was that this project was intended to be what it says in the title, Return of Reckoning, as in Mythic Age of Reckoning which most of us in this community played.
Second big confusion comes when we're told that this is an Alpha server, and I'll quote from the
What you accept about this project before you start playing. thread:
Reading this, I understand that I expect an incomplete game, with bugs, and that is fine, but nowhere in this makes us read that the game might be changed and take other directions of what we believe is the purpose of this project, which is to be a Return of Reckoning.Azarael wrote:2. This project is in its alpha stage, and alpha means bugs.
Alpha is not an "excuse". Alpha means Alpha. It means the server is not feature complete. It means you accept that bugs can and will occur. It means that you treat all things as being in flux, and nothing as permanent. It means that you understand and accept the possibility that progress on the server may be reset.
Now there is a new added point which reads:
This is even furthering confusion, for example:Azarael wrote:4. The developers have the right to change anything they so choose, mechanically speaking, and to bear the consequences, in terms of player gain or loss, of bad decisions.
We are not Mythic. This isn't Age of Reckoning. We have the right to change anything related to the mechanics of the game. Anything.
Read that again. We have the right to change any mechanics, should we so wish. Will that always be a good idea? No. Will it always work out for the best? No. Will it sometimes work out for the best? Yes. Do we eventually hope that all our changes will be improvements from Mythic's state? Yes.
We understand the balancing of x or y class, we're glad things can be changed which were obviously broken in the live versions of the server. But having the WP/DoK changes in mind, they weren't with the balancing the class as main target in mind, they were brought mostly due to what the development team thought was a design mistake from the original game, and that the class should have a different role, and arguments were used such as lore and other several reasons. As Zumos explained, players never really bothered as much with the lore discrepancies, they just are happy and used to play the class for years and will take any such drastic change as negative.
This is what causes the most confusion because now can we really expect Return of Reckoning, or Not-Return of Reckoning?
How far are the changes in the design from the original game going to go? Out the top of my head if you followed the lore I guess Archmages should be as a strong damage dealer as any other sorcerers type in the game. Chaos shouldn't be allied with Greenskins because from the lore perspective, they simply can't. Can we expect live Reckoning version of Land of the Dead with all its items and item procs in the future? Or all of that will be re-designed? The bottom line is: How far are the changes going to go? You can't just change as you go along without a proper plan/direction that is agreed and shared with the player base in my opinion. In a new game you could do this without any problem, but here we players were expecting something like Return of Reckoning as the huge title says, but now not really?
Keep in mind, nowhere I'm saying you shouldn't or should do this or that, or that you should listen to the players before doing this or that, this is your project and you can do whatever you want, I'm not discussing this. But it wasn't told us beforehand at all that such things would occur, because then why would you use the title of a game if you're going to overhaul it?
If this was a complete new game from scratch we wouldn't mind at all, but for a lot of us the Mythic version was considered the final product, even with all its flaws, and that the majority of us enjoyed playing it, even with all its drawbacks - and with some small tweaks here and there would do the job regarding balancing, oRvR and even PvE to have an even better Reckoning.
My final thoughts is that this is lacking transparency and communication on what is the direction this project will take beforehand.
It should be stated that we (as players) will not have the same game as Mythic one (once this Alpha phase is out). That the intention is to take x, y, and z direction, and fundamentally change a, b & c. We are using Mythic's Return of Reckoning as a sort-of foundation for a new game.
Now a lot of players will feel like they've been cheated, where while we agreed with an Alpha phase with a lot of bugs, we would have the same game (or something very similar) that it was enjoyed from Mythic. But as things went along, sudden changes were done and all time and effort by players for that particular gameplay they wanted will not happen.
Basing your arguments on what Mythic intended to do and didn't do, or what developers intended at that time, or how effective or noneffective they were implementing stuff is all null. We must base how you envision this new game with what we had as a game, which was Age of Reckoning at its final stage.
- wargrimnir
