Balancing Order Tanks

[Cimba]

The only tank on order with armor debuff, ap for the whole group on crits tactic, ap for his oathfriend with watch and learn, +25% parry for his oathfriend, aoe snare, decent punt, can run 2h with an on demand kd that does good damage and still has good guard damage mitigation thanks to oathfriend.

Also keep in mind the "meta" on live for a long time was double slayer so IB was the only thing that could provide an armor debuff for their target.

The only thing that puts the IB behind is how clunky his buff system is, if there lasted a bit longer or simply were out of the gcd, he would be as good as kobts with all the tools he brings.

- Armor debuff can come from weapon procs (WH/WP) or just WL/SW.
- A whole bunch of classes can help you with AP management (KOTBS, RP, WP) even SL/SW to some extend. Additionally items can help a great deal here.
- AOE snare is also covered by AM/KOTBS.
- There are plenty of (on demand) KDs available (KOTBS, WH, SW) and to a lesser degree also SM, BW, SL.
- With regards to running 2h. SM can to the same and use Eagle's Flight when the guard damage should become an issue.
- The punt is decent but again not unique due to KOTBS punt.

What is left as 'unique' abilities is a parry buff which benefit is very situational and the ability to pump someone a lot of AP in a short period of time (Watch and Learn with AOE skills). The rest can be equally well or better provided by other classes.

If you look at the other tanks they have a few benefits that no one else can supply or they stack so you don't have problems with redundancy.

[Azarael]

AoE snares. I believe you have resolved this already, but I will add that I would block any attempt to increase the uptime of AoE snares in the game. No AoE snare mechanism should have 100% uptime.

Auras. Every solution I've ever seen to this problem has been too conservative. Auras/shouts are the class mechanic, and not only that - they command 9 of the classes' ability slots. Accordingly I don't agree that auras should be linked to attacks - they should instead be their own skills, which have to be cast appropriately.

The problems with all versions of the aura mechanic are:

• High value to group (resists, FM, EA)
• Uptime (100%, so there is no situational element)
• Lack of counter (typeless because they are career mechanic buffs)
• Vulnerability to automation resulting in zero effort for high reward (Twister, macroing, RoR version)

Compare this with the IB, whose buffing is only part of his career mechanic (Oath Friend), is more involved than the KotBS/Chosen and yet still has a number of his buffs reliably masked or partially masked by auras and potions.

The principle of a KotBS is commanding allies and the mechanic fails to realize this at all. Commanding is about issuing the right order to the right units at the right time, like in any strategy game, not repeating the same orders every 12 seconds to everyone around you.

My opinion on the mechanic is that it should be reworked into local area shouts directed at an ally or enemy target, with an AoE (to break the automation BS) while staying off the GCD. Durations and cooldowns could be adjusted. Additionally, certain lesser-used auras could stack with themselves to add an additional element of choice to the mechanic. A control would need to be added to prevent double Knight/Chosen.

Managing this system should represent a significant amount of a KotBS or Chosen's input, rather than being an afterthought like SM Blade Enchantments are. As aforesaid, I've yet to see anything that would add significant decision-making to these classes, and I would prefer KotBS to make the jump from being the most brainless and boring tank to being one of the most involved and skilled ones.

[bloodi]

Armor debuff can come from weapon procs (WH/WP) or just WL/SW.

None of the late game weapons have it, just the epic quest ones and they are still inferior to the one the IB brings, the only comparable thing is the WL one, which he has to spec for even if its the common build, besides that, we are comparing tank tools, he is the only one with one.

Its also a 5 cd skill, meaning you will always have it when attacking a new target.

A whole bunch of classes can help you with AP management (KOTBS, RP, WP) even SL/SW to some extend. Additionally items can help a great deal here.

Kobts gives you ap when you defend an attack, Rp gives ap to people within 100ft of the rune, WP has a 25% chance of giving ap when healing someone.

IB gives ap to his whole group every time he crits with a 3 secs icd, that means that its realiable and its not hindered by movement, a IB with Ancestors fury and Sweet revenge has a flat 25% chance of crit, pair it with a kotbs and the chance to crit from initiative and the IB will give 25 ap to every member of the group every 3 seconds as long as there is something to hit.

That is besides watch and learn which will give an on demand boost of ap to anyone in your group. This tools are all superior to any form of ap any other class in order gives.

- AOE snare is also covered by AM/KOTBS.

Earthshatter, while it may not be in the best of places right now due to not damaging all targets as he should be doing, its a 600+ hit plus snare on a snb IB can get to 1k+ on a 2h ib, comparing this to crippling blow which hits 3 targets with reduced damage and aa gtaoe with a high cd that does no damage is a bit of a false equivalence, yeah they all aoe snare but IB is far superior to both of them.

Also he can pickup a tactic that gives him another aoe snare on top of that.

- There are plenty of (on demand) KDs available (KOTBS, WH, SW) and to a lesser degree also SM, BW, SL.

None of them do 1k damage on top of doing the KD. Plus he has one he doesnt even need to spec for in SnB.

- With regards to running 2h. SM can to the same and use Eagle's Flight when the guard damage should become an issue.

But he doesnt bring the armor debuff, the point of the 2h and most of the post is to show the synergy an IB has with double slayer, brings a kd they dont have, an armor debuff they dont have and can run a 2h to give another extra push of damage for the target to die, this is quite a big deal.

- The punt is decent but again not unique due to KOTBS punt.

He doesnt need a tactic for it however.

What is left as 'unique' abilities is a parry buff which benefit is very situational and the ability to pump someone a lot of AP in a short period of time (Watch and Learn with AOE skills). The rest can be equally well or better provided by other classes.

If you look at the other tanks they have a few benefits that no one else can supply or they stack so you don't have problems with redundancy.

Calling Oathfriend very situational is misleading at best, its a flat +25% parry buff, will cut the damage your mdps or any dps that is getting attacked by melee will recieve and on top of that gives an initiative buff, making you less likely to be critted, is one of the best skills in the game, its downside as pointed before is the fact that it has very few uptime and paired with everything else you have to keep up, becomes really clunky to have on all the time.

As aforesaid, I've yet to see anything that would add significant decision-making to these classes, and I would prefer KotBS to make the jump from being the most brainless and boring tank to being one of the most involved and skilled ones.

Imo, Kobts/Chosen for a lot of people is a class that lets them "lead" while providing guard/punt and another tank tools, doesnt need much involvement so they can shout at me in TS for leaving them to their deaths.

The best approach may be to downgrade all the auras to lesser versions unless the kobts/chosen works towards improving them and when he does they once again are on the level of the old auras, the mechanic in particual i dont know but something that lets them keep their auras on a lesser version would satisfy most people, they play Kobts/Chosen because is the easy tank, making them the hardest one is commendable but will make a lot of people drop them entirely.

Throw them a bone by letting them still have auras even if they are inferior while giving them a reason to become more involved and you will appease most of them.

[Telen]

All the best warband leaders Ive played with either on comms or not were kotbs. Due to not having a mechanic to concern themselves with.

[Cimba]

None of the late game weapons have it, just the epic quest ones and they are still inferior to the one the IB brings, the only comparable thing is the WL one, which he has to spec for even if its the common build, besides that, we are comparing tank tools, he is the only one with one.

Its also a 5 cd skill, meaning you will always have it when attacking a new target.

The question is how much is the difference between proc and the IB? 300-400 armor? How much of a damage increase is that? What procs future late game weapons will have is still unknown afaik. The WL is afaik even stronger than the IB debuff right?
Who said we compare only tank tools? My argument is that IB has very little that makes him unique. His benefits can be covered by other classes in the grp.

Kobts gives you ap when you defend an attack, Rp gives ap to people within 100ft of the rune, WP has a 25% chance of giving ap when healing someone.

IB gives ap to his whole group every time he crits with a 3 secs icd, that means that its realiable and its not hindered by movement, a IB with Ancestors fury and Sweet revenge has a flat 25% chance of crit, pair it with a kotbs and the chance to crit from initiative and the IB will give 25 ap to every member of the group every 3 seconds as long as there is something to hit.

That is besides watch and learn which will give an on demand boost of ap to anyone in your group. This tools are all superior to any form of ap any other class in order gives.

KOTBS has 2 AP auras one of which gives you AP every 5 seconds or so. I'm not sure if 100ft of the ap rune is the diameter or radius but it's either way quite a lot of room.
So while the AP contribution of IB is certainly nice it's not like there aren't any other solutions to it. Simple Itemization among them. Additionally if the IB get's kited around the group gets nothing.
Watch and Learn might actually become interesting when melee healing gets reintroduced and the opponent runs heavy AP drain as a counter to it. But then again that's a very specific scenario. In the meantime the 50ft range restriction limits this usefullness of this skill.

Earthshatter, while it may not be in the best of places right now due to not damaging all targets as he should be doing, its a 600+ hit plus snare on a snb IB can get to 1k+ on a 2h ib, comparing this to crippling blow which hits 3 targets with reduced damage and aa gtaoe with a high cd that does no damage is a bit of a false equivalence, yeah they all aoe snare but IB is far superior to both of them.

Thats besides the fact that he can pickup a tactic that gives him another aoe snare on top of that.

The question is do they get the job done (AOE Snaring)? That earthshatter does good damage is a nice bonus but it might also be a disadvantage if you need to blow your aoe snare in your burst rotation.
The additional aoe snare tactic is also very situational since it's linked to an aoe knockback. I don't think your grp will be thrilled if you hand out free immunities for an aoe snare.

- There are plenty of (on demand) KDs available (KOTBS, WH, SW) and to a lesser degree also SM, BW, SL.

None of them do 1k damage on top of doing the KD.

And the SW does an Initiative debuff. The SM provide CC immunity for the grp. SL is undefendable. So the knockdown has an additional benefit... so do other KDs. If you want to run the DPS game among the tanks I would put my money on SM. But maybe I haven't played with the right IB yet.

- With regards to running 2h. SM can to the same and use Eagle's Flight when the guard damage should become an issue.

But he doesnt bring the armor debuff, the point of the 2h and most of the post is to show the synergy an IB has with double slayer, brings a kd they dont have, an armor debuff they dont have and can run a 2h to give another extra push of damage for the target to die, this is quite a big deal.

Okay so your point was that IB brings something to one specific setup which on RoR isn't actually that good? I can get behind that. We actually tried to run a double slayer once. But if a class only shines in one specific setup I don't think that class is in a good place.

- The punt is decent but again not unique due to KOTBS punt.

He doesnt need a tactic for it however.

KOTBS doesn't need a tactic for his AP managment And with the change of Encourage Aim to 2H and the removal of Shatter Confidence he can afford the kick tactic.

What is left as 'unique' abilities is a parry buff which benefit is very situational and the ability to pump someone a lot of AP in a short period of time (Watch and Learn with AOE skills). The rest can be equally well or better provided by other classes.

If you look at the other tanks they have a few benefits that no one else can supply or they stack so you don't have problems with redundancy.

Calling Oathfriend very situational is misleading at best, its a flat +25% parry buff, will cut the damage your mdps or any dps that is getting attacked by melee will recieve and on top of that gives an initiative buff, making you less likely to be critted, is one of the best skills in the game, its downside as pointed before is the fact that it has very few uptime and paired with everything else you have to keep up, becomes really clunky to have on all the time.

Yeah if they get attacked by melee. That's what I call situational since half of the DPS ingame are RDPS. Considering RvR where rdps are dominating it's even less usefull there. Additionally you need to face your attacker which you can't always guarantee when 2 mdps buzz around you. I'm not entirely sure about parrying during knockdowns but I believe you should not be able to during one.
The initiative buff is indeed nice. However it can also be achieved by RP buffs or SM Nature's blade with some luck. And from these buffs the entire grp would benefit.

[bloodi]

The question is how much is the difference between proc and the IB? 300-400 armor? How much of a damage increase is that? What procs future late game weapons will have is still unknown afaik. The WL is afaik even stronger than the IB debuff right?
Who said we compare only tank tools? My argument is that IB has very little that makes him unique. His benefits can be covered by other classes in the grp.

660 armor = 15% physical reduction, so 300-400 armor means a 10% increase in damage, this is not something minor. A normal SnB Ib with points up to Acenstors fury has a 960 armor debuff at full grudge, 1090 if you go up to Cave In, 1152 if you go up to Greataxe Mastery, this is all within the normal parameteres of a normal IB, if we go for extra stupid with Grudge Born fury its 1216, if you want the option of extra stupid with dumb on top and you are up to m4, its 1250 armor, thats a 29% damage increase for physical damage.

A level 40 Wl gives 1400 with a 10 sec cd 10 secs uptime, IB however is 20 secs duration 5 secs cd, meaning you can even cycle it and have it on more than one target at once.

And we compare to tank tools because once again, synergies in a group are important, being the only tank with an armor debuff lets you run double slayer or simply a WH with antoher weapon that is not the armor debuff one, which is inferior to the SC or epic Dwarf influence reward. This is quite important.

KOTBS has 2 AP auras one of which gives you AP every 5 seconds or so. I'm not sure if 100ft of the ap rune is the diameter or radius but it's either way quite a lot of room.
So while the AP contribution of IB is certainly nice it's not like there aren't any other solutions to it. Simple Itemization among them. Additionally if the IB get's kited around the group gets nothing.
Watch and Learn might actually become interesting when melee healing gets reintroduced and the opponent runs heavy AP drain as a counter to it. But then again that's a very specific scenario. In the meantime the 50ft range restriction limits this usefullness of this skill.

Again, you are handwaving the synergies and what is optimal, a Kobts currently will always run resist aura, because its too good, toughness aura, because its also quite nice and Stay focused, mostly because of the healing tactic.

Besides, 25 ap every 3 is better than 20 ap every 5. If you run stay focused and an IB, you barely have ap problems and your kobts will be able to run the 3 normal auras and doesnt have to get out of his way to get the extra ap aura.

The question is do they get the job done (AOE Snaring)? That earthshatter does good damage is a nice bonus but it might also be a disadvantage if you need to blow your aoe snare in your burst rotation.
The additional aoe snare tactic is also very situational since it's linked to an aoe knockback. I don't think your grp will be thrilled if you hand out free immunities for an aoe snare.

Well, yeah, its still a 50% uptime aoe snare, key targets can be still snared with the single snare and the Burst is always a cherry on top, having a skill that does up to 1k+ damage while doing an aoe snare is nothing to sneeze at.

The tactic that gives an aoe snare on rune etched axe is merely a show of risk/reward, you are giving free immunities indeed, however is also the only tank in the game afaik with a no target limit 100% aoe snare when combine both, you can see how Aza is against such a thing yet the IB has it if he can afford to give immunities.

And the SW does an Initiative debuff. The SM provide CC immunity for the grp. SL is undefendable. So the knockdown has an additional benefit... so do other KDs. If you want to run the DPS game among the tanks I would put my money on SM. But maybe I haven't played with the right IB yet.

Sure we could run the math, however only one of them is known as Cave Win, it may not have the 5 secs kd anymore but dont make mistakes, is one of the best kd in the game, after all the game is about burst and putting 1k damage on top of the kd makes a big difference.

Okay so your point was that IB brings something to one specific setup which on RoR isn't actually that good? I can get behind that. We actually tried to run a double slayer once. But if a class only shines in one specific setup I don't think that class is in a good place.

Well, you asked what does a IB bring, i tell youj what it brings and where it shines.

Also, that double slayer is not good in RoR is debatable at best. Surely is not something you can test after running it once

KOTBS doesn't need a tactic for his AP managment And with the change of Encourage Aim to 2H and the removal of Shatter Confidence he can afford the kick tactic.

The point is the punt is always good, no matter what, no tactic needed, is much more flexible than the Kobts one.

Yeah if they get attacked by melee. That's what I call situational since half of the DPS ingame are RDPS. Considering RvR where rdps are dominating it's even less usefull there. Additionally you need to face your attacker which you can't always guarantee when 2 mdps buzz around you. I'm not entirely sure about parrying during knockdowns but I believe you should not be able to during one.
The initiative buff is indeed nice. However it can also be achieved by RP buffs or SM Nature's blade with some luck. And from these buffs the entire grp would benefit.

I dont really buy this "but rdps are good in orvr so melee is not good" idea, they are still by far the best option for a 6 man, they are still by far the best option to do damage while on the move, cutting melee damage is not something situational or bad. And when you take into account that it eats a quarter of your guard damage just for having it up, the argument of being situational stops having any base, is always good, is even better when facing mdps.

[Azygous]

Chosen and knights are going to have some work done on them soon anyway mate. They need a hit with the nerfhammer

Chosen already got nerfed to ****, how much more does it take until you people are satisfied?

The resist aura (the mandatory one) makes the AM and RP resist buff useless.

Who cares if the AM resist buff is useless in premades? They are never taken into any serious premades over an RP so they fall into pug and wb slots where their buffs come in helpful since the kob usually runs off far to the front lines in these situations. Improving your resist buff will not get you into a premade nor will it improve your chances.

No RP buffs anything except the init buff. Even if if the resist buff was equivalent to the resist from a kob or slightly better they'd wasting a buff slot on little to no gain.

As for the super punt, every tank should have one but every tank should pay a similar penalty to have one such as wasting a tactic slot for the IB. Also, the armor/tough/str buffs from an IB should be brought down to match an RP's str buff by using the logic of many posters here. Fair is fair.

Anyway, changes are coming and hopefully judging from the work on AM/SHams and dok/WP the chosen/kobs will be more fun and engaging than punting/kd/stagger +aoe snare for a kob and running passive auras.

Suggestion: Give the chosen/kob a pull ability that works on party members to drag them away from a focus when you take some of their current usefulness. Or give it to an SM instead of a super punt etc.

I also hope they look into the tactics of a chosen as the only useful group friendly one is Destined. The rest are selfish tactics which shouldn't be in the top choices in a group oriented class.

[Cimba]

660 armor = 15% physical reduction, so 300-400 armor means a 10% increase in damage, this is not something minor. A normal SnB Ib with points up to Acenstors fury has a 960 armor debuff at full grudge, 1090 if you go up to Cave In, 1152 if you go up to Greataxe Mastery, this is all within the normal parameteres of a normal IB, if we go for extra stupid with Grudge Born fury its 1216, if you want the option of extra stupid with dumb on top and you are up to m4, its 1250 armor, thats a 29% damage increase for physical damage.

A level 40 Wl gives 1400 with a 10 sec cd 10 secs uptime, IB however is 20 secs duration 5 secs cd, meaning you can even cycle it and have it on more than one target at once.

And we compare to tank tools because once again, synergies in a group are important, being the only tank with an armor debuff lets you run double slayer or simply a WH with antoher weapon that is not the armor debuff one, which is inferior to the SC or epic Dwarf influence reward. This is quite important.

Synergies are important yes. So why exactly do you want to run double slayer? Because they have virtually no synergies with each other. The damage difference due to an inferior armor debuff from the proc weapon only needs to be lower than the damage e.g. Blurring Shock would provide. If this is the case than Blurring Shock is more potent than a dedicated armor debuff.
Due to the advent of life tap healer you have more non physical damage sources which would also count towards the damage e.g. Blurring Shock could provide.

Again, you are handwaving the synergies and what is optimal, a Kobts currently will always run resist aura, because its too good, toughness aura, because its also quite nice and Stay focused, mostly because of the healing tactic.

Besides, 25 ap every 3 is better than 20 ap every 5. If you run stay focused and an IB, you barely have ap problems and your kobts will be able to run the 3 normal auras and doesnt have to get out of his way to get the extra ap aura.

While I agree with resis and stay focus I would argue about thoughness. The debuff effect can be covered by several other classes. So that leaves the thoughness buff which is nice. The question is if it performs better than the additional AP aura which also acts as AP drain. This depends on your opposing team and your setup and is a not trivial answer.

Well, yeah, its still a 50% uptime aoe snare, key targets can be still snared with the single snare and the Burst is always a cherry on top, having a skill that does up to 1k+ damage while doing an aoe snare is nothing to sneeze at.

The tactic that gives an aoe snare on rune etched axe is merely a show of risk/reward, you are giving free immunities indeed, however is also the only tank in the game afaik with a no target limit 100% aoe snare when combine both, you can see how Aza is against such a thing yet the IB has it if he can afford to give immunities.

AM snare is also 50% uptime with an additional initiative debuff and even more potent with 60%. Nice that is does damage but if I don't need the snare than I have tank who do better damage.,

Sure we could run the math, however only one of them is known as Cave Win, it may not have the 5 secs kd anymore but dont make mistakes, is one of the best kd in the game, after all the game is about burst and putting 1k damage on top of the kd makes a big difference.

You're just repeating your argument: But it does damage! Yeah so do other tanks, believe it or not. Cave win is just a relic from live.

Well, you asked what does a IB bring, i tell youj what it brings and where it shines.

Also, that double slayer is not good in RoR is debatable at best. Surely is not something you can test after running it once

True enough it shines in one setup that nobody runs. We didn't run it just once. It's good enough to farm pugs with it but when it get's to higher levels of competition I don't have that much confidence in it. Maybe we were just **** at it. I believe LoB ran it also when they started here. I don't know the reason why they stopped running rather soon but it wouldn't surprise me if it's because it's not that good.

The point is the punt is always good, no matter what, no tactic needed, is much more flexible than the Kobts one.

Why is it much more flexible than kotbs? It requires 25 grudge so you can't even use it in the opening of the the fight.

I dont really buy this "but rdps are good in orvr so melee is not good" idea, they are still by far the best option for a 6 man, they are still by far the best option to do damage while on the move, cutting melee damage is not something situational or bad. And when you take into account that it eats a quarter of your guard damage just for having it up, the argument of being situational stops having any base, is always good, is even better when facing mdps.

Look at the evidence. Is there a single group running a melee setup in orvr? Sometimes you see mixed setups with one mdps (mostly proc setups) but that's about it.
The same you could argue about being the best option for a 6 man. Simtex even admitted that proc setups (which require at least one sorc/bw) are damn hard to play against. Unfortunately the current 6on6 scene is to small to determine that accurately.

I don't argue that Oathbound is a good skill. But it's not that good that I would pass on the benefits of the other tanks. And that's true for every single skill of the IB.

EDIT:

Who cares if the AM resist buff is useless in premades? They are never taken into any serious premades over an RP so they fall into pug and wb slots where their buffs come in helpful since the kob usually runs off far to the front lines in these situations. Improving your resist buff will not get you into a premade nor will it improve your chances.

I don't know where you have been for last couple of months but AMs and Shamans are a competitive healer choice if not flat out superior to RP/ZL in many setups.

[Stmichael1989]

The problem with Knights, even moreso than Chosen since Chosen actually have decent 2h options, is that they're broken only because of a few abilities. The rest of the class is a joke, and bringing auras down to being in line with every other ability would make the knight vastly inferior to orders other two tanks.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be brought back in line, because they are the source of a lot of the game's balance issues. But at the same time, the rest of the class needs to become more functional. Every other tank gets a +25% parry ability that allows them to be a more effective 2 handed offtank, including Chosen. Knights only get shield rush for 10% block, thus requiring a shield. They can then spec into a tactic that gives them 15% extra parry on top of it, so that they get to roughly the same mitigation, but still requires a shield. Useless for 2h spec.

That's just one example out of many that shows that Knights are a poorly designed class with high highs and low lows. They're a bad class with a few OP abilities that make them indispensable to Order.

[7rere7]

The problem with Knights, even moreso than Chosen since Chosen actually have decent 2h options, is that they're broken only because of a few abilities. The rest of the class is a joke, and bringing auras down to being in line with every other ability would make the knight vastly inferior to orders other two tanks.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be brought back in line, because they are the source of a lot of the game's balance issues. But at the same time, the rest of the class needs to become more functional. Every other tank gets a +25% parry ability that allows them to be a more effective 2 handed offtank, including Chosen. Knights only get shield rush for 10% block, thus requiring a shield. They can then spec into a tactic that gives them 15% extra parry on top of it, so that they get to roughly the same mitigation, but still requires a shield. Useless for 2h spec.

That's just one example out of many that shows that Knights are a poorly designed class with high highs and low lows. They're a bad class with a few OP abilities that make them indispensable to Order.

BlackGuard ,Black Orc don't have a 25% parry ability ,the IB does but it cost 15 grudge and last only 10sec and its placed on the least utilized tree ,so its fine.

KotBS have runefang tactic : increasing strength and weapon skill by 240 . Giving shield spec damage on par with 2h damage.

SM,Chosen 25%parry ability should definitely be reworked .