[Poll] T2/T3 Scenario Merge

[CegeePegee]

Noiree makes a good point, skills gap will be much more apparent in SCs that it is in orvr, would there be any accounting for this in a merged SC setup?

[wargrimnir]

My suggestion was to move group heal to R16, as it's terribly useful in RvR as well and you're kind of a gimp mid-tier healer without it.

[saupreusse]

My suggestion was to move group heal to R16, as it's terribly useful in RvR as well and you're kind of a gimp mid-tier healer without it.

yeah also stealth and guard should be lowered to lvl 1 with grp heal and the current (extremely aggressive) bolster low lvl players should be fine. But we need client control first.

[Noiree]

yeah also stealth and guard should be lowered to lvl 1 with grp heal and the current (extremely aggressive) bolster low lvl players should be fine. But we need client control first.

Never understood why these core abilities were available at lvl 10. Bit too wow-y and even they decided that this was bs after a few years.

[blaqwar]

Because to someone new to the game that's getting to grips with targetting, movement, the interface, keybinding, core starting abilities and the whole RvR system it might be a bit too much to burden them with an important and crucial ability like guard, which incidentally is also not very well represented in other games. What's next, we're making lvl 40 M4 and tactics available at level 1 so that people bored with T4 can find T1 challenging again?

But that's just my opinion, I'm sure there will be a ton of T4 folk who have been playing this game since the dawn of time arriving in this thread and telling me to l2p.

Edit: I understand the need to reshuffle some abilities because of the bracket change but it's a slippery slope and I'd like the developers to be careful. I've had a rough enough of a time trying to get a few of my attention-challenged friends to play and I haven't even tried with the non-PvP part of the gamers I know (eventhough I think the game would appeal to them). Simply because WAR is very inaccessible and very much unfriendly towards newbies.

[saupreusse]

Because to someone new to the game that's getting to grips with targetting, movement, the interface, keybinding, core starting abilities and the whole RvR system it might be a bit too much to burden them with an important and crucial ability like guard, which incidentally is also not very well represented in other games. What's next, we're making lvl 40 M4 and tactics available at level 1 so that people bored with T4 can find T1 challenging again?

first: you can expect from ppl to be able to use 3 abilities from the very beginning. we are humans and very capable of processing this much input.
furhermore, if someone is new to mmos in general, he will have it harder on a private server anyway, because we have no support and no working game (we dont even have a working wiki).
moving abilities from lvl 10 to lvl 1 because the classes are pretty much unplayable without them isnt much of a big deal, really.
the earlier tanks have guard, the more time they have to get used to it. its not like everyone expects from a lvl 1 noob to know what hes doing.
I dont really know where you're going with the sarcastic statement that M4 and tactics should be avilable in t1 - and the suggestion of moving two abilities being related to veterans not finding t1 challenging isn't a real argument. both things are completely unrelated to my suggestion.
we were talking about improving the game - not doing stupid stuff that would break it.
Edit: sry this sounds angrier than it should.

[Noiree]

As Shaman/AM you're basically a waste of space until lvl 8. You start off with spells you rarely use in endgame because they're either weak or expensive. So much for the training effect.
WH/WE should be able to get behind the lines unseen right at the start. Even if they don't do much dmg, they can distract.
Having guard and taunt early could add some sense to low tanks. #learntoassistearly
For Sorc/BW, a defensive skill like aoe root early on would be nice.
Just some ideas.

[blaqwar]

Because to someone new to the game that's getting to grips with targetting, movement, the interface, keybinding, core starting abilities and the whole RvR system it might be a bit too much to burden them with an important and crucial ability like guard, which incidentally is also not very well represented in other games. What's next, we're making lvl 40 M4 and tactics available at level 1 so that people bored with T4 can find T1 challenging again?

first: you can expect from ppl to be able to use 3 abilities from the very beginning. we are humans and very capable of processing this much input.
furhermore, if someone is new to mmos in general, he will have it harder on a private server anyway, because we have no support and no working game (we dont even have a working wiki).
moving abilities from lvl 10 to lvl 1 because the classes are pretty much unplayable without them isnt much of a big deal, really.
the earlier tanks have guard, the more time they have to get used to it. its not like everyone expects from a lvl 1 noob to know what hes doing.
I dont really know where you're going with the sarcastic statement that M4 and tactics should be avilable in t1 - and the suggestion of moving two abilities being related to veterans not finding t1 challenging isn't a real argument. both things are completely unrelated to my suggestion.
we were talking about improving the game - not doing stupid stuff that would break it.

First of all, understand that my previous post was a reply to both your and Noiree's posts.

The 3 starting abilities quickly turn into 8+ along with the first morale ability. It sounds to me like you're underestimating how daunting this game can be, consider that the combat system and the ability usage is just one part of it, there's gearing up, currency, professions, public quests and more. Looked at in a vacuum it might seem simple but it really isn't.

I try to respond to newbie questions in /advice. You probably know that there's a lot of those and the issue is that a lot of the time they'll be questions pertaining to the core mechanics of the game being asked by people in T2/T3. I appreciate the sentiment of guard being available earlier giving players more time to figure it out but it seems to me people tend to forget that guard +3 starting abilities is only a situation you'll encounter at level 1. It quickly gets more complex from there.

Your stance on the matter seems to be that the game not being noob friendly is a reason to completely abandon the last vestiges of what Mythic implemented to make the game more accessible and easier to learn. I disagree with that. I believe that if the server is to succeed it will need to attract more than the old hardcore players. Even the returning casual players will be somewhat overwhelmed when returning, I know I was and I played the game from launch till about 4 months before it died, all the while blogging about it.

My exaggerated comment about implementing M4s and tactics into the game at level 1 was a poor example of where we might end up, as I said it's a slippery slope. And I believe that if it were up to the hardened veterans of this game who like logging into T1 characters from time to time we'd be seeing a lot more complexity in T1, simply for their own entertainment and because of a lack of perspective.

Warning, boring personal experiences ahead:
Try to understand that I'm not talking out of my ass here, I don't know if you've tried this but I managed to convince 1 (!) out of all my friends to play with me during retail and we played together through the tiers. He even enjoyed his WL even in T4, although it was a bit of a difficult transition from the other tiers.

Now I've tried to get my gamer friends to play on RoR, 2 of them gave it a shot (one of them was the person who played on retail with me). One of them abandoned the game after three hourly gaming sessions and returned to WoW because he found the game didn't offer enough to get over the learning bump (although he enjoyed the PvP) and the other now logs on from time to time to play an hour in T1 because he doesn't feel like he has the energy to try and relearn the rest of the game (along with RoR specific stuff). Sure, these aren't people who have 8 or so hours to spare in their day and would only play casually but they are not stupid people and I've been gaming with them for most of my life.

My significant other has expressed interest in the game and remarked how similar it is to the Vanilla WoW that she pours most of her time into but I just don't have the heart to try and convince her to try WAR because I know she'll give up on it in an hour because of how daunting it is. This comes from me knowing her and the game inside out.

Chalk it up to personal experience and flawed personal opinion. I disagree with making the game more challenging at the entry level and question people's motives and perspective. That'll be the last of my posting on this topic.