[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[th3gatekeeper]

Note to myself: Don't argue on the internet, it won't lead to anything.

It was shown that armor stacking can be pretty good under certain circumstances. These circumstances are e.g. no armor ignore is involved. Which at least for order is quite a stretch since marauders are part of more or less every destro group.

Popular opinion seems to be that armor is overperforming. While this might be true in respect to the other defensive options it seems to be necessary to survive. Looking at SCs or 6on6 shows that physical damage dealer dominate even though armor is supposedly overperforming. At least on an organized level.

The proposed solution might look interesting for low levels of armor penetration. However MDPS can stack armor penetration way beyond 50%. To have any kind of physical mitigation a player would need more than 50% armor mitigation. This is equal to 2,2k armor. Assuming an armor debuff this would need to be 3,6k. I'm not entirely sure if a cloth armor class can reach that value. Mabye if he goes full retard on armor stacking.

In essence with the help of armor debuffs classes like choppa/slayer, who can easily stack WS, would hit every light/cloth target with no phsyical mitigation. That should be fun.

Actually, the circumstances I was showing INVOLVED armor debuffs.

The fact that it "seems necessary to survive" is the problem. Armor should not be the "go to stat" for survival as it seems to be now...

If MDPS stack armor pen over 50% they are giving up something else. Either they are losing strength (towards the softcap) or they have no defensive stats (like armor). So this creates a tradeoff between "tanky vs damage".

Point being, I think it a much more fair calculation. Logically as well, if I possess the skill to bypass 30% of a plate users armor, but can only bypass 30% of cloth armor as well, it makes no sense.

I do agree though. Merely buffing weapon skill (as I proposed) ALONE, might not be a good move... You would need to look at increasing some other stat values at the same time to compensate (like toughness)

[Cimba]

Actually, the circumstances I was showing INVOLVED armor debuffs.

The fact that it "seems necessary to survive" is the problem. Armor should not be the "go to stat" for survival as it seems to be now...

If MDPS stack armor pen over 50% they are giving up something else. Either they are losing strength (towards the softcap) or they have no defensive stats (like armor). So this creates a tradeoff between "tanky vs damage".

Point being, I think it a much more fair calculation. Logically as well, if I possess the skill to bypass 30% of a plate users armor, but can only bypass 30% of cloth armor as well, it makes no sense.

I do agree though. Merely buffing weapon skill (as I proposed) ALONE, might not be a good move... You would need to look at increasing some other stat values at the same time to compensate (like toughness)

Yes armor debuffs. But classes like WH/WE or Marauder have percentage based armor ignoring skills/tactics. You did not consider these. As an example armor stacking against a WE/Marauder melee train would probably not be very useful.

When the most potent damage dealers for SC/6on6 are all physical ones than stacking armor seems like the correct approach if you participate in it. I dont see any issue with it being the go to stat. Aside from the obvious balance issue that magical damage apparently is negligible in these cases.

Up to 45% they aren't really giving anything up (maybe a tactic slot for wild gambit/instinctive aim). And thats my SW with crap gear. In BIS you might already have 50% without any significant tradeoffs.

Sorry, mate but logic hasn't played a role in MMOs for long time

If you want to increase the value of a defensive stat look at Initiative. I'm actually suprised the devs didn't change it when they had their run at crit stacking.

[Daknallbomb]

Dont lower Amor effektivness lower heals!! Aslong healer can bring 8 k grp heals and so on.. Aka shammy am.. Ppl are nearly unkillable in proper Fight.. Amor nearly doesent care there

[Bozzax]

1/10 premades vs premade are even like that and may ends in a draw. Not even sure there are enough good teams active that can nullify eachother.

All other times weaker teams die rapidly (pugs die like flies)

Orvr is kilspam as well

Considering that why would you touch heals (outside of 13pts lifetap)?

[Luth]

If you want to increase the value of a defensive stat look at Initiative. I'm actually suprised the devs didn't change it when they had their run at crit stacking.

One of the earlier ideas (about 2 years ago) was it to give the initiative stat a "trivial-blows-like" effect, but ofc not as high as full TB; even with much intiative it would have been probably no 50% reduced crit damage as initiative serves already a purpose.

[Aurandilaz]

Actually, the circumstances I was showing INVOLVED armor debuffs.

The fact that it "seems necessary to survive" is the problem. Armor should not be the "go to stat" for survival as it seems to be now...

If MDPS stack armor pen over 50% they are giving up something else. Either they are losing strength (towards the softcap) or they have no defensive stats (like armor). So this creates a tradeoff between "tanky vs damage".

Point being, I think it a much more fair calculation. Logically as well, if I possess the skill to bypass 30% of a plate users armor, but can only bypass 30% of cloth armor as well, it makes no sense.

I do agree though. Merely buffing weapon skill (as I proposed) ALONE, might not be a good move... You would need to look at increasing some other stat values at the same time to compensate (like toughness)

Yes armor debuffs. But classes like WH/WE or Marauder have percentage based armor ignoring skills/tactics. You did not consider these. As an example armor stacking against a WE/Marauder melee train would probably not be very useful.

When the most potent damage dealers for SC/6on6 are all physical ones than stacking armor seems like the correct approach if you participate in it. I dont see any issue with it being the go to stat. Aside from the obvious balance issue that magical damage apparently is negligible in these cases.

Up to 45% they aren't really giving anything up (maybe a tactic slot for wild gambit/instinctive aim). And thats my SW with crap gear. In BIS you might already have 50% without any significant tradeoffs.

Sorry, mate but logic hasn't played a role in MMOs for long time

If you want to increase the value of a defensive stat look at Initiative. I'm actually suprised the devs didn't change it when they had their run at crit stacking.

And just how many Mara/WE meleetrains are out there? I haven't myself seen many of those.
WE/Wh get their 1 min CD buff that allows 50% armor ignorance for what, 7 seconds? Ofc there is the classic AW/torment spam, which is a result of every other ability being inferior due to the armour bypass that those two have. (another "too good not to use" career ability)
Marauders meanwhile are disgustingly OP with their armour ignore tactics and armour debuff. (same with WLs to some similar extent)

Touching the current armour "balance" would either lead to some classes dying insane fast, and if going the other direction, some classes would just not die.

Which is perhaps why the current armour situation should just be "swept under the mat", and focus directed on stats like Initiative and Toughness, and changing them to become proper ALTERNATIVES to armour stacking.
The WS/Str dynamic is again something that is too messy. Most classes have ways to bypass the need for WS stacking, which is about why most classes just focus on getting Str up to the cap.

tldr: it's getting way too complicated, armour is what it is, and about the only thing keeping most classes alive when focused

[Daknallbomb]

1/10 premades vs premade are even like that and may ends in a draw. Not even sure there are enough good teams active that can nullify eachother.

All other times weaker teams die rapidly (pugs die like flies)

Orvr is kilspam as well

Considering that why would you touch heals (outside of 13pts lifetap)?

I mean 13 pts life taps

[Bozzax]

Oh ok

[Penril]

What's exactly the problem with armor? The only issues I see are armor talismans and pots, and those are crafting-related issues.

[Daknallbomb]

Hm i think its a Bit shitty that cloth Toons like Zealot, shammy, magus engi, am, runie can get high Amor via talismans and pots! They can Double his Amor what they should have. That Tanks and so on can have mega high defensiv stats with Amor is good thats the job