Weapon skill and BO

[roadkillrobin]

If you're talking abouit No Choppin' Me! tatcic, then i can tell you it's one of the worst 12 point tactics in the game. Group pretty much always gonna have WS buff from Da Biggest, which is pretty much the only Warbellow worth using. When FML and NCM used to stack on live it was worth it, (Giving 240 WS to a choppa was really good), but on RoR it's crapp.

Let's "theorycraft"

Ok. Let's say you only have one tank. Just one, and it happens to be a BO. Let's also assume you have a Choppa and SH in your group.

Choppa KD is 2 seconds, drops rage (unless running Wot Rules?) and SH needs Squig Armor AND to be in melee range in order to use his. So it might be a good idea to have the BO spec for DYG. Since AoE snare is pretty much mandatory, you end up with a Toughest/Boss spec with zero points in Brawler. This means your stat steal is crap (how much does it steal at zero points?).

The Bo could run something like this:

http://www.ror.builders/career/black-or ... ,4462,4464

He would have:
a) ST KD
b) AoE snare
c) Group WS buff (good for the Choppa and the SH; Mara also benefits from it but they have Piercing Bite, same with WEs and Agonizing Wound/Pierce Armor)
d) He can run "Da Greenest" for damn good resist/armor buffs to cover for lack of Chosen aura (these values are better than a Zealot/Shaman buff).
e) Undefendable 20% Physical damage debuff

Is it better than your cookie cutter Brawler specs? Well... maybe for this group setup, it could be.

@tesq: according to RoR stacking rules, NCM (a tactic) and Da Biggest! (a skill) should stack. However, they didn't stack on live. SM debuffs, on the other hand, did.

As for the OP, I believe he is talking about the tactic that puts you in Best plan when you parry (Bring em On) and asking if stacking WS is a good idea (more WS = more parry = more BeO ). And my answer is no, because, honestly: BeO sucks.

DaGreenest, Armor proc was good in t3. You would get around 350+ armor over a potion if it procd. In t4 you get like 150 more armor if using a blue potion. It's just not worth using over another Warbellow.

As for the resist buff. I very much doubt a chance of getting an extra 100 resist over Shamans/ZE buffs is worth more then giving your group 75-120 BS/INT/WS/STR/TOU/INI aswell as debuffing enemies by the same amount.

Even If I had 0 points in Brawler I would still use it over DaGreenest and i would NEVER waste a tactic slot for NCM when you gonna get 75 WS buff for free from DaBIgggest proc.

RoR.builders - Black Orc

Here's a build for rr40 able to pull of everything you want except for the RNG chance to get extra 100 resist/150 armor.
And you still gonna be able to buff your groupmemmbers WS without wasting a tactic slot.

If potions wern't a thing then I would agree with you but potions really are the main villian here.

[Bozzax]

You cant compare armor debuff and spirit rezist debuff. While armor debuff increase dmg to all destro melee classes, to BO and BG and to SH and DoK, spirit rezist debuff increase dmg to SMs, Ams and 1 WL skill. Fact, that Wrath of Hoeth stack with Heavens blade is not important, because only classes who profit from that are SMS(tanks who deal much less dmg than any mdps/rdps class) and mainly dps AMs(which are less common than DPS Shammans). If You are only SM in group and Your party doesnt have DPS AM(which are most of the time) You are tend to use Natures blade anyway, so not that big deal. Sure if Your group setup is by somehow 2 SMs with 1 2H dps speced and Your group also have dps AM, than this stacking 2 skills have its effect, but how often You have to face this wierd group setup?

You cant compare a legit armor debuff like maras to the underwhelming armor penetration granted by a 12 point WS tactic that might buff 3 targets in your party at most that could just as easily be done by re using FMl while switching defensive targets


Also who said that the AM has to be dps? And why does SM even need x2 resist auras setting spirits res to essentially 0 when you already have KOTBS resist auras?


And if all that jazz IS considred ok for SM, then why can't BO get double tick WS buff with NCM ?

I think the important questions are why was it changed here and why was it left unchanged on live even though repeatedly bugg reported / forum whined by order.

Regardless anyone can make a balance proposal for it as it is clearly a 100% worthless 12pts tac due to range limitations and BO having a spam ST version wo range restrictions as well as statsteal buff

[Tesq]

mm sound a good starting point in kill also SM 2x debuff, what about considwer that a bug too?

You cant compare armor debuff and spirit rezist debuff. While armor debuff increase dmg to all destro melee classes, to BO and BG and to SH and DoK, spirit rezist debuff increase dmg to SMs, Ams and 1 WL skill. Fact, that Wrath of Hoeth stack with Heavens blade is not important, because only classes who profit from that are SMS(tanks who deal much less dmg than any mdps/rdps class) and mainly dps AMs(which are less common than DPS Shammans). If You are only SM in group and Your party doesnt have DPS AM(which are most of the time) You are tend to use Natures blade anyway, so not that big deal. Sure if Your group setup is by somehow 2 SMs with 1 2H dps speced and Your group also have dps AM, than this stacking 2 skills have its effect, but how often You have to face this wierd group setup?

mm well you can't either allow SM to hit ppl by 500-800 dmg xD

after 2-3 experience my dok i run spirit resistence tactic and it have more resistences than my chosen... this is not really fine when with little effort a tank class can almost do the dps of a melee. Also considering in the small skirmish the 2h with wall of darting still also make it a lot durable with zero trade out.
The sm have the coefficent of the chosen ravage (bit lower), he also have acces to a 2x debuff which make this higer and open also 1 spec option more if you want avoid first mastery and go mid +right for the KD while be tanky and also do high dmg(burst type).

There is nothing fair about this. A sm specced well can "destroy" you for being tank, couple this with inbuild dmg tool such taunt (who cares kobs have 2 interrupt) and you just have free 30% bonus on top of doing crit pure dmg.

Most of ppl on server have 600 or less of spiritual and SM basically put it at zero. SM can dish pure dmg basically as if is a morale exept toughness + taunt increase + crit increase = that hurt.
He can also due how this work buster tank.... My sub 30 SM do 500 dmg when he crit.

[Wdova]

mm sound a good starting point in kill also SM 2x debuff, what about considwer that a bug too?

You cant compare armor debuff and spirit rezist debuff. While armor debuff increase dmg to all destro melee classes, to BO and BG and to SH and DoK, spirit rezist debuff increase dmg to SMs, Ams and 1 WL skill. Fact, that Wrath of Hoeth stack with Heavens blade is not important, because only classes who profit from that are SMS(tanks who deal much less dmg than any mdps/rdps class) and mainly dps AMs(which are less common than DPS Shammans). If You are only SM in group and Your party doesnt have DPS AM(which are most of the time) You are tend to use Natures blade anyway, so not that big deal. Sure if Your group setup is by somehow 2 SMs with 1 2H dps speced and Your group also have dps AM, than this stacking 2 skills have its effect, but how often You have to face this wierd group setup?

mm well you can't either allow SM to hit ppl by 500-800 dmg xD

after 2-3 experience my dok i run spirit resistence tactic and it have more resistences than my chosen... this is not really fine when with little effort a tank class can almost do the dps of a melee. Also considering in the small skirmish the 2h with wall of darting still also make it a lot durable with zero trade out.
The sm have the coefficent of the chosen ravage (bit lower), he also have acces to a 2x debuff which make this higer and open also 1 spec option more if you want avoid first mastery and go mid +right for the KD while be tanky and also do high dmg(burst type).

There is nothing fair about this. A sm specced well can "destroy" you for being tank, couple this with inbuild dmg tool such taunt (who cares kobs have 2 interrupt) and you just have free 30% bonus on top of doing crit pure dmg.

Most of ppl on server have 600 or less of spiritual and SM basically put it at zero. SM can dish pure dmg basically as if is a morale exept toughness + taunt increase + crit increase = that hurt.
He can also due how this work buster tank.... My sub 30 SM do 500 dmg when he crit.

I dont think that 2H SM can do so much higher dmg than 2H BO or Chosen(not sure about BG). Like I sayd If You are only SM in group and run 2H DPS build and dont have dps AM or BW in group, Your party mostly wants you to run Natures blade(stat steal) insted of rezist debuff. I am not saying that it doesnt seems wierd, but my opinion there are much more class balance issues than this one which is noticable only under verry limited and uncommon setups.

[Ugle]

Most of ppl on server have 600 or less of spiritual and SM basically put it at zero.

Just to modify your "facts" here, a Khaine/Vaul specced DPS SM (ether dance/CW specced) can reduce 397 spirit resist IF their heavens blade proc, not 600. Outside of soloroam/dueling Natures blade is better every time.

[TenTonHammer]

Just to modify your "facts" here, a Khaine/Vaul specced DPS SM (ether dance/CW specced) can reduce 397 spirit resist IF their heavens blade proc, not 600. Outside of soloroam/dueling Natures blade is better every time.

That cannot be right

with no points put in WoH debuffs 236 and HB debuffs 157 and these values increase with Hoeth points so it should be debuffing more than 397?

[Ugle]

Just to modify your "facts" here, a Khaine/Vaul specced DPS SM (ether dance/CW specced) can reduce 397 spirit resist IF their heavens blade proc, not 600. Outside of soloroam/dueling Natures blade is better every time.

That cannot be right

with no points put in WoH debuffs 236 and HB debuffs 157 and these values increase with Hoeth points so it should be debuffing more than 397?

As I said, specced in Khaine/Vaul (which is the cookie cutter dps spec). Hence you have no points in Hoeth.

At rr70 + gear specialization point you can go Ether Dance and WW, then the debuff values will be higher, but there is only a handful active SMs in that renown range, dunno if they go that path?

Edit: Some maybe not too obvious points, this is the "SMs do too much damage" scenario, wich implies DPS spec and to be able to spec WW and ED with the GWM and BA tactics, wich is also required in such a DPS spec, you need rr70+ gear specialization point, wich also means you also loose out on quite a lot of str as opposed to mixing gear sets to optimize str

[TenTonHammer]

As I said, specced in Khaine/Vaul (which is the cookie cutter dps spec). Hence you have no points in Hoeth.

At rr70 + gear specialization point you can go Ether Dance and WW, then the debuff values will be higher, but there is only a handful active SMs in that renown range, dunno if they go that path?

Ok i missed that part but my points stands, i know quite a few SM on order who go "lulz dps" with Khaine + Hoeth and from that aspect is where the "0 resists" arguments comes from

[Penril]

Love how this thread went from "is this BO tactic good?" to "I am a Chosen and SMs are destroying me, please nerf".

Btw, has any of you guys (the ones calling for SM nerf) ever played the class? Just curious. I know a certain someone who claimed WLs were incredibly OP, yet he admitted he never played the class.

[Eigar]

Please Penril, you know that is not how this forum works!

Also nerf sorcs plz, never played one but they sure fuk me up good