Cant't win, won't play

[peterthepan3]

In an ideal world where people are keen to assist and improve, you could have such scenarios whereby team X with 2 more DPS could win.

In reality? You're lucky enough if you get a tank to guard you - let alone stick with you. You will never change this population's mentality, trust me - been there done that.

[Darosh]

In an ideal world where people are keen to assist and improve, you could have such scenarios whereby team X with 2 more DPS could win.

In reality? You're lucky enough if you get a tank to guard you - let alone stick with you. You will never change this population's mentality, trust me - been there done that.

Tangentially related...

Spoiler:

Having picked up entirely new players in the past, whilst playing my IB alt and showing them what a <tiny> bit of groupplay can do... you could potentially change the mentality (you'd have to be lobotomized to not unterstand the very difference between pug and [little-effort] groupplay - at last once you played an evening with an actual group - and not crave for it [=groupplay, trololol pugfarm, a bit competition] to continue). However, no one is interested in teaching and preaching common sense 24/7, even if it were to improve the server wholesome and permanently...

[Axerker]

So if one side has 2 healers, and other has 4, yes side with 2 healers has 2 more dps, but 1 dps =/= 1 healer in terms of impact.

Then the DPS aren't doing their job. If the DPS can't kill the healer on their own, they need to be at least dealing enough damage where the healer has to solely focus on themselves, and not other players. AoE heals cost more AP or have longer casting times. If you're doing enough damage, or effectively CC'ing with silences or knockdowns, the healer should never have the option to cast an AoE heal. Sure, they can get an AoE heal off here or there, especially an instant casts, but the AP cost on those mean the healer should run out of AP if you haven't killed them yet. Once a healer has no AP, he's useless.

But I'm also not in the business of feeding the other team kills if things are hopeless. Going 0-25 helps no one but the enemy, and behavior like that definitely has the opposite effect of its intent. It doesn't inspire anyone, it just makes your teammates angry and your enemies happy. Rando slayers suiciding into enemy over and over is relatively commonplace on Order, though, so it's not like anyone would be surprised.

As mentioned, those were just my opinions. You should still run in and attempt to win (not suicide, but you will obviously die - there is a difference between knowing you'll die attempting to back door a node and walking solo into 8 enemies), even if you're at a severe disadvantage. I've come back from games when it was 400-100 because the other team assumed they would win. Its unlikely, sure. But there's always the chance, might as well try. I'm in the game, I might as well go for it and try to get another 20 renown for a kill then sit on the sideline. I don't care if they get another 20 renown for me. Considering the enemy would get the same renown by being AFK at a node in oRvR than that single kill, I'm not really benefiting them in any way. If the enemy team completely obliterated my own team because they have better tactics, they deserve the added renown. If my team wants to do stupid things that pretty much guarantee a loss (like running in solo, off a node, for literally no reason), then those team members don't deserve renown and should stick to killing boars in the forest.

[Axerker]

In an ideal world where people are keen to assist and improve, you could have such scenarios whereby team X with 2 more DPS could win.

In reality? You're lucky enough if you get a tank to guard you - let alone stick with you. You will never change this population's mentality, trust me - been there done that.

Tangentially related...

Spoiler:

Having picked up entirely new players in the past, whilst playing my IB alt and showing them what a <tiny> bit of groupplay can do... you could potentially change the mentality (you'd have to be lobotomized to not unterstand the very difference between pug and [little-effort] groupplay - at last once you played an evening with an actual group - and not crave for it [=groupplay, trololol pugfarm, a bit competition] to continue). However, no one is interested in teaching and preaching common sense 24/7, even if it were to improve the server wholesome and permanently...

Correct. Instead you just get people saying how the mentality will never change, but refuse to attempt to help other players. I don't just stay silent in SCs. I use the chat, announce where enemies are, when nodes are going down, etc. Even in pugs. Most of the time people don't listen. Sometimes they do. There are good players playing solo pugs because they don't have any friends online, but still want to PvP. Pugging is no different than just saying in chat "Hey, I'm about to queue, who want's to join?" You have no communication or established tactic with the people you're queueing with. They're essentially randies that you got grouped with. The most effective groups are obviously the ones that either use a voice chat or have played with each other enough that they know how their group dynamic works. Some players are just inherently good at PvP, and some suck. PvP is a complex and difficult style of gameplay. There are a lot of things to know about classes, how every skill works, how mechanics work, and how people work.

I want to point out one thing as well (off topic for your post, sorry for tagging this in). People complain about Guards all the time. All. The. Time. They need to understand that only one person can be guarded at a time. Most people prioritize a healer in PvP, because they're considered the most necessary for survival of the group. A good Tank will shift his guard as needed during combat. A terrible Tank will not guard anyone (I've met people that do this because they don't want to take the 35% damage from the ally - to be honest, I've never even noticed receiving damage, I couldn't even tell you if it works or not). A mediore Tank will at least guard SOMEONE, then never change it (typically a healer). Most of the people who cry about no one guarding are mDPS that are mad that they aren't being guarded over the healer, in my experience. Or there are 3 mDPS in a fight and the Tank guarded a different one. Assuming your Tank is at least guarding someone, you gotta get over it if you're not guarded. You don't see Tanks getting mad if they are getting hit and a mDPS uses his CC on an enemy attacking the healer instead of the mDPS attacking the Tank. Ya'll selfish if you expect to get guarded as a DPS over a healer. Choppas included. You know your class is going to be in the fray, taking a crap ton of damage. Build for survivability (tactics, skills, and gear alike) at the cost of some damage or go glass cannon and die. Healers build for Toughness/Wounds just as much as Willpower so they don't get sniped, and they sit 100 ft behind you. A good tank will guard you if they see you getting stomped. But if it comes down to Priority A vs Priority B, Healer in Danger > DPS in Danger.

[peterthepan3]

Correct. Instead you just get people saying how the mentality will never change, but refuse to attempt to help other players

Done more than my fair share to try and get people learning the basics of the game/grouping up/helping out community, hence why I made the comment because it stems from 3+ years' on the server, as opposed to simply being a blanket statement.

I agree with the guard points.

It would be nice if we could change the ingame loading screen tips to something pertinent to current RoR issues/playerbase.

[Crazyboss]

Delete Slayer and Reroll WL , Slayer/Choppa worst mdps atm.

[Hardkoar]

Since everyone is stating the fact that, if we separate people who sign up solo from those who sign up in a party, queue times for the premades would skyrocket here's a fix .

Eliminate the ability to queue as a premade all together. Allow Sc's to be a somewhat balanced playground like it is pre 40 for everyone in the game and not for the few that were here before and gained their rank/gear , disable the ability to farm pugs with premades at its root. If people want to 6v6 they can organize it easily in any locked rvr zone.

Unless ofc premades just want to keep farming pugs because that's where reality check kicks in and no one gives a hoot about healthy competition or fun.

[peterthepan3]

Eliminate the ability to queue as a premade all together. .

Yes! Yes! YES!

[Axerker]

Done more than my fair share to try and get people learning the basics of the game/grouping up/helping out community, hence why I made the comment because it stems from 3+ years' on the server, as opposed to simply being a blanket statement.

Sorry if it seemed my comment was directed at anyone. It was more in general about people not helping and just complaining.

It would be nice if we could change the ingame loading screen tips to something pertinent to current RoR issues/playerbase.

Ugh, that'd be nice. There are a few helpful ones (in terms of general gameplay) here and there. But overall they're pretty meh. Nothing beats the old World of Warcraft one though about not forgetting to go outside sometimes, lol.

[GodlessCrom]

Killing competent healer as a dps in group environment is group effort. Can maybe kill them in the space of a KD or silence if they receive no heals from other healer and no guard swap as solo mdps. If they have pots or morales up, or they received immunities due to mine-spamming engi/magus, what can ya do? This is assuming you have others supporting you as well. If you are sole mdps on a team of rdps, or there are no tanks, or the tanks are guarding healers/rdps rather than mdps, you will melt before you do appreciable damage to enemy healer.

KD and silence share immunities as well, so you can at most lockdown enemy healer for 3 seconds as a dps. After that, they have immunity for a while. I suppose WL/Mara with m1 root up can use that as a ghetto cc and hit them from behind for extra deeps. But then, how bad is the enemy team that they just leave the healer out to dry like that? If they're that bad, then this isn't the scenario OP is describing, because enemies that bad aren't spawncamping you.

I realize I'm looking pretty negative here, and that's not me at all. As I said, I play to win. But you guys are acting like by just beating your head against a wall you'll break it down. Sometimes, the situation is not winnable and you gotta play smarter, not harder. And sometimes the smartest thing to do is to not feed the premade kills and wait for the sc to end. If the other team is dragging things out, then leave the SC cuz 10 min debuff will be over quicker than 15 minute pugfarm SC.

I agree with all the stuff about being positive, being communicative, etc. Tanks should absolutely be able to float guard, but should absolutely prioritize good mdps as guard target. Guard only has 30 foot range, if you're guarding a healer in your backline, you're not pushing the enemy. Obviously you switch to healer when they get focused, or if all the mdps on your team blow, but they shouldn't necessarily be your #1 priority. Also guard does 50% of damage ally takes, not 35%. I feel like we're talking about two different situations though. If you're in a fight where people are responding to communication and working as a team, and you can actually accomplish something, that's totally different than the sort of one-sided stomps other people are referencing.

EDIT: also lol at removing ability to group in SCs. There is pug SC, thats enough. You can always solo roam in oRvR if you really want solo experience.