Scenario changes

[Gravord]

Look video above and tell me again im wrong about High Pass Cemetary...
Temple of Isha, as stated, even with capping flag and full wipe on enemy team (which wont happen anyway with guards 20 meters away from center of the map and healers who can walk) will still take close to full duration of the map.

I looked at the video (only the part about highpass cementary sc) and tell you again: You are wrong about highpass cementary.
I also quote myself:

Guards are usually only an issue, when one vastly superior side wants to farm the other side.

The enemy team in your example never dominates the battlefield, while staying safe near their guards. They capped the objectives not once(!) for full duration in sc. We had (for a time) a 6vs6 against a rdps premade in high pass cementary recently and while they were nowhere near a pushover (with 2 rr80 rdps), but they suffer the same as all rdps groups-> lack of pressure. There are enough obstacles in high pass cementary to hide from rdps and wait for a good moment for push. I agree that high pass cementary is one of the sc that are more favorable for rdps (black fire basin even more), but so what? There are other sc like gates of ekrund which favor mdps. I like this diversity.

When thinking about, you maybe right about temple of isha. The ticks could be a bit faster.

Im afraid you are missing my point mate. Its not about rdps friendly or melee friendly. Its about complete no risk taken by some teams because they immediatelly withdraw to guards safety and doesnt even try do anything for the rest of that scenario.
Image situation where theres barrier that doesnt let them back, range and healers have to actually start kiting as they should, tanks have to support them and prevent melees getting too close, you rather have "flee 10 meters to be safe"? or see teams constantly kite, move around and look for opportunity to fight back? If my team follows and try kill them - we are leaving objective giving rest of enemy chance to either take it or sneak up and flank us. Stuff can happen, can go good, can go wrong, but there will be fight involved and thats should be the point of scenario.

[dansari]

If by dwarf wall you refer to gromrill crossing

Probably meant Gates of Ekrund

Could be, but outside of tunnels/stairs that map aint melee friendly either.

Eh, agree to disagree. Anecdotally all I see in there for pug sc is 3 dps doks, 4 tanks, 2-3 more mdps, and healers

[Gravord]

Look video above and tell me again im wrong about High Pass Cemetary...

The scenario mechanics are what they are, and one's perception of them is dependent on the intent of the players when queing for and entering any particular SC. Specifically, if your intent on playing a scenario amounts to little more than racking up player kills, then opposing players hugging the spawn point for protection is going to seriously annoy you. However, if your intent on playing a scenario is to win that scenario, then opposing players hugging the spawn point is beneficial because it means you are winning the scenario.

I noted in your video you charged across the entire map through a number of Destruction players to go after one particular Destruction player. That tells me your intent in playing that particular High Pass scenario was to kill that particular player and therefore winning the SC was incidental to that concern. Such activity is not a reflection of scenario mechanics, it is a reflection of player intent. Changing the scenario mechanics will not address that issue.

Temple of Isha, as stated, even with capping flag and full wipe on enemy team (which wont happen anyway with guards 20 meters away from center of the map and healers who can walk) will still take close to full duration of the map.

In Lost Temple there are no guards twenty meters from either the Capture Flag or the center of the map. In Lost Temple if your team captures the flag and your enemy no longer contest the issue, it will not take the entire fifteen minutes to complete the scenario. In addition your side wins, and I always thought that was the point.

As said, scenario is suppose to be PVP content. Sitting on flag to click it every 40 seconds is endgame pvp? Fight to claim flag - great, fight to cap objective - still great, sit on flag because enemy wont leave their safe spot - whats the point?
And you are right, i charged specific enemies. Because its frustrating to be under constant rdps pressure and have literally no way to inflict any harm on them if they never step out from guards protection. Its bad design done by Mythic i hope current team would rectify.

As for Isha
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/248944169? ... =00h07m09s

As you can see, it takes exactly 13 seconds for a snared healer starting in the perfect middle between 2 warcaps to reach spot allowing tank to already knockback enemy team members into guard range (if he had Focus mind ready would be 6 seconds tops with cc immunity). Its 6vs6 scenario where teams suppose to test which one of them is best, without any external help outside team members.

While suggesting changes - theres should be no flag at all in 6vs6 sc. Team that does 6 kills win the round, both teams get ported back to warcamps and go for round 2. Round 3 only if teams reach 1:1. Then scenario ends. And 2:0 in rounds also ends scenario.

[Luuca]

The real issue with PuG SC is not the Guards, the Spawn Camping, or the PvE for Flags.

All three of these maladies are the effect of a cause. The cause of these issues stems directly from RoR not having a que system that balances roles within the parties before you enter the PuG SC.

Another popular game allows you to que for dungeons and pvp while selecting a role within the group based upon your spec. The classic 3; DPS, Heal, Tank. In RoR, as we have all experienced, you can enter your favorite SC only to discover that there are no healers (or no dps, or no tanks). This lack of proper (or even close to proper at times) group comp is what causes the situations wherein spawn points are camped, people avoid fights, and people just give up and quit trying - riding out the clock/points until the end for their one token reward.

In a game like RoR, class synergy and a properly set up team is paramount, especially facing another group that has good group set up and all three main roles represented.

How do you fix this? I'm no coder and I have no idea. I will say that even a check box that allows the player to self-identify as a particular role (DPS, Healer, or Tank) no matter how slightly inaccurate it is at the beginning of implementation, would allow the SC matchmaker to use that data to ensure groups within the SC have at least one "self identified" healer, and one "self identified" tank and a chance of working as a team to get a win.

I think that, even with a self-selected role indicator, some trolls will sign up as heals when they are really DPS, just to get "SC Pops". I feel that it would self-correct over time because players running PuG SCs would soon learn that good group comps and covered roles nets wins, while lying about your role nets spawn camping and no fun.

Again, I agree with the issues, but see them as symptoms of a root cause. If we had an SC matchmaker system that would not start SCs until there was at least a 1-1-4 comp, things would improve. Optimally, you'd want to see a 2-2-2 group, but close is better than no heals or an SC full of squishy DPS and no heals.

[Gravord]

The real issue with PuG SC is not the Guards, the Spawn Camping, or the PvE for Flags.

All three of these maladies are the effect of a cause. The cause of these issues stems directly from RoR not having a que system that balances roles within the parties before you enter the PuG SC.

Another popular game allows you to que for dungeons and pvp while selecting a role within the group based upon your spec. The classic 3; DPS, Heal, Tank. In RoR, as we have all experienced, you can enter your favorite SC only to discover that there are no healers (or no dps, or no tanks). This lack of proper (or even close to proper at times) group comp is what causes the situations wherein spawn points are camped, people avoid fights, and people just give up and quit trying - riding out the clock/points until the end for their one token reward.

In a game like RoR, class synergy and a properly set up team is paramount, especially facing another group that has good group set up and all three main roles represented.

How do you fix this? I'm no coder and I have no idea. I will say that even a check box that allows the player to self-identify as a particular role (DPS, Healer, or Tank) no matter how slightly inaccurate it is at the beginning of implementation, would allow the SC matchmaker to use that data to ensure groups within the SC have at least one "self identified" healer, and one "self identified" tank and a chance of working as a team to get a win.

I think that, even with a self-selected role indicator, some trolls will sign up as heals when they are really DPS, just to get "SC Pops". I feel that it would self-correct over time because players running PuG SCs would soon learn that good group comps and covered roles nets wins, while lying about your role nets spawn camping and no fun.

Again, I agree with the issues, but see them as symptoms of a root cause. If we had an SC matchmaker system that would not start SCs until there was at least a 1-1-4 comp, things would improve. Optimally, you'd want to see a 2-2-2 group, but close is better than no heals or an SC full of squishy DPS and no heals.

This topic is not about pug sc.

[peterthepan3]

Have to agree regarding Isha/6v6 sc. I honestly believe that there should be no guards in such SC, and that the objective timer (ironically) should be much quicker: all real premades play for the PvP anyway, and as Grav said, you only go for the flag when the fight is settled; noone wants to hang around for 6-10 minutes.

Anyone who says that capping Isha doesn't take in excess of 6+ minutes to win (simply through points alone, and no PvP) has never queued Isha =P

[wargrimnir]

Know your enemy. If they want to cheese at guards, take the objective and trash them on the forums. Pretty sure that's the real point of tryhard 6v6 around here.

[Gravord]

Know your enemy. If they want to cheese at guards, take the objective and trash them on the forums. Pretty sure that's the real point of tryhard 6v6 around here.

Very constructive, worthy of a head game master.

[Luuca]

Spoiler:

The real issue with PuG SC is not the Guards, the Spawn Camping, or the PvE for Flags.

All three of these maladies are the effect of a cause. The cause of these issues stems directly from RoR not having a que system that balances roles within the parties before you enter the PuG SC.

Another popular game allows you to que for dungeons and pvp while selecting a role within the group based upon your spec. The classic 3; DPS, Heal, Tank. In RoR, as we have all experienced, you can enter your favorite SC only to discover that there are no healers (or no dps, or no tanks). This lack of proper (or even close to proper at times) group comp is what causes the situations wherein spawn points are camped, people avoid fights, and people just give up and quit trying - riding out the clock/points until the end for their one token reward.

In a game like RoR, class synergy and a properly set up team is paramount, especially facing another group that has good group set up and all three main roles represented.

How do you fix this? I'm no coder and I have no idea. I will say that even a check box that allows the player to self-identify as a particular role (DPS, Healer, or Tank) no matter how slightly inaccurate it is at the beginning of implementation, would allow the SC matchmaker to use that data to ensure groups within the SC have at least one "self identified" healer, and one "self identified" tank and a chance of working as a team to get a win.

I think that, even with a self-selected role indicator, some trolls will sign up as heals when they are really DPS, just to get "SC Pops". I feel that it would self-correct over time because players running PuG SCs would soon learn that good group comps and covered roles nets wins, while lying about your role nets spawn camping and no fun.

Again, I agree with the issues, but see them as symptoms of a root cause. If we had an SC matchmaker system that would not start SCs until there was at least a 1-1-4 comp, things would improve. Optimally, you'd want to see a 2-2-2 group, but close is better than no heals or an SC full of squishy DPS and no heals.

This topic is not about pug sc.

I have not been in a premade group, queing SCs, and had a situation wherein we were pushed back to spawn and camped for longer than it took for us to get back on track and fight our way out. I have; however, been in about every poorly group composition PuG SC wherein one side or the other lacks healers, or tanks and is pushed to spawn without hope of fighting their way out.

If you are telling me that the OP was talking about his 6-man premade getting bored farming PuGs in the non-PuG SC, then I'd say his unwillingness to play the objectives and allow the other team to regroup and put up a fight is the issue. If, on the other hand, you are saying his 6-man premade SC group ques as a group and gets the **** pushed in every time, I'd say, git gud.

The type of ROLE-BASED SC que system I advocate will also help the solo or duo, or trio players facing well performing Premades in the Non-PuG SC as well.

Not about PuG SC? OK. But it is about those issues being symptoms of a root issue - lack of roles and bad group comps versus good group comps with roles covered.

[Martok]

Anyone who says that capping Isha doesn't take in excess of 6+ minutes to win (simply through points alone, and no PvP) has never queued Isha =P

I did not say Lost Temple doesn't take more than six minutes to win via points alone, I said winning via points alone does not take the full fifteen minutes, an assertion you have substantiated. I agree removing the guards from Lost Temple would be a good idea.