JenkScars wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:37 pm
You've miss the point. Entirely...point is..WE and WHs get punished big time to go into stealth. and have to worry about AP loss, and 30 second of stealth...
Logically speaking again..lets punish healers..for every time they use a heal..not only do they lose the AP to cast it..they lose AP after a few seconds per heal..now that would be punishment.
But I wonder..why would you only select that portion , and then try to make your case?
Instead of clipping out what , take in all of what ive said entirely...
You know what I mean. So..i ask...and not only to you, but any who read this..
and many who play WE or WHs , im pretty sure they get tired of the AP drain and the 30 second stealth..taht defeats the purpose of being a stealther..
Sure and lets add a 65 AP cost onto your stealth ability that has ZERO activation cost. (65 ap cost is for group heal, your stealth makes you invisible to multiple targets, only fitting). Also we are going to have to remove that CORE ap cost reduction on all of your finishers since we are balancing you towards healers and their ap even though the mechanics are entirely different. That's the rest of your "logically speaking"
To address all of your post, stealth is designed to be different in this game. So stop comparing it to other games. Stealth is a positioning tool utilized by your class to assist in killing your target. You have an aoe detaunt that lasts a full 15s, a root/snare immunity, and a self-knockback to assist you in fleeing from an engagement when your target's allies decide to come kill you. Also stealth as currently implemented gives you the upperhand as you suggested it should, it comes at the cost of using it at the correct time to minimize your loss (aka skill)
Ok. Obviously, you're missing the point. Because 1. Executables are only done out of stealth. 2. I would be fine with stealth was perma and it cost 65 AP to enter perma stealth. 3. I had used healers for a few things..which obviously, you take out of any context, and not even was implying any of that. You know exactly what I was talking about. And as an adult..i expect that you respond with not so outlandish and imply many things which I did not state. You know it was about stealth and the duration of it.
So you respond entirely with strawman of my post.
But, i'd like to know why those other abilities would be a problem with perma stealth? you talked about them, and listed them..knowing full well, they don't deal with stealth, but out of stealth combat.
I am not dealing with out of stealth combat..but rather the duration of stealth..You see what im doin here? you guys hate any idea about stealthers..and get so riled up, about any improvement or changes to stealthers...that it seems that so far..most of you, have not done anything to try to improve..stealth..but show your complaints and more excuses about stuff, knowing full well, what I stated...
I will state again..for those who read..This isn't about out of stealth combat..this is an idea..about improving stealth..
Now it aint that hard..and many play WE or WHs. and im dealing with the stealth stuff. and not out of stealth combat.
Can we please reach a modicum of level ground here, that instead of getting riled up and start throwing out crap , that doesn't even deal with what I said? Really? Can we do that? Can you do that?
Last edited by JenkScars on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
anarchypark wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:34 pm
permanent undying pet for WL/SH.
permanent 100 hate/grudge for IB/BG.
permanent perfect stance for SM/BG.
I can keep going until you realise what
permanent stealth means.
In other words..you show me you cant read..so..you act like a child..and imply that everything else must be permanent, when talking about a stealth change that wouldn't change anything , but how long a person is stealthed....
If you cant realize what exactly ive stated..and you say a post like this...because it challenges you..or something you don't like..why do even go on a forum??
A refreshment. This is an idea about The duration of stealth, and about any changes to it, to be made, I specifically mentioned perma invis..
As seen thru a few post, one has mentioned it shouldn't be done in combat, that is, stealthing while in combat, I belive it could be changed that they cant. Another person has suggested that it be 65 AP to go into stealth. I'm fine with that. I wouldn't mind using 65 AP to enter stealth.
Notice how I try to get a middle ground, and want people to deal with what ive stated. Now, for some..that's apparently hard. But this is a forum, and ideas are brought up by many, if they act like this towards a simply idea about stealth being perma invis, or maybe reduce the CD on stealth and stop the AP steal during stealth, then perhaps..they should re evaluation why exactly they would be on a forum in the first place, where many ideas are exchanged or talked about.
JenkScars wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:37 pm
You've miss the point. Entirely...point is..WE and WHs get punished big time to go into stealth. and have to worry about AP loss, and 30 second of stealth...
Logically speaking again..lets punish healers..for every time they use a heal..not only do they lose the AP to cast it..they lose AP after a few seconds per heal..now that would be punishment.
But I wonder..why would you only select that portion , and then try to make your case?
Instead of clipping out what , take in all of what ive said entirely...
You know what I mean. So..i ask...and not only to you, but any who read this..
and many who play WE or WHs , im pretty sure they get tired of the AP drain and the 30 second stealth..taht defeats the purpose of being a stealther..
Sure and lets add a 65 AP cost onto your stealth ability that has ZERO activation cost. (65 ap cost is for group heal, your stealth makes you invisible to multiple targets, only fitting). Also we are going to have to remove that CORE ap cost reduction on all of your finishers since we are balancing you towards healers and their ap even though the mechanics are entirely different. That's the rest of your "logically speaking"
To address all of your post, stealth is designed to be different in this game. So stop comparing it to other games. Stealth is a positioning tool utilized by your class to assist in killing your target. You have an aoe detaunt that lasts a full 15s, a root/snare immunity, and a self-knockback to assist you in fleeing from an engagement when your target's allies decide to come kill you. Also stealth as currently implemented gives you the upperhand as you suggested it should, it comes at the cost of using it at the correct time to minimize your loss (aka skill)
Ok. Obviously, you're missing the point. Because 1. Executables are only done out of stealth. 2. I would be fine with stealth was perma and it cost 65 AP to enter perma stealth. 3. I had used healers for a few things..which obviously, you take out of any context, and not even was implying any of that. You know exactly what I was talking about. And as an adult..i expect that you respond with not so outlandish and imply many things which I did not state. You know it was about stealth and the duration of it.
So you respond entirely with strawman of my post.
But, i'd like to know why those other abilities would be a problem with perma stealth? you talked about them, and listed them..knowing full well, they don't deal with stealth, but out of stealth combat.
I am not dealing with out of stealth combat..but rather the duration of stealth..You see what im doin here? you guys hate any idea about stealthers..and get so riled up, about any improvement or changes to stealthers...that it seems that so far..most of you, have not done anything to try to improve..stealth..but show your complaints and more excuses about stuff, knowing full well, what I stated...
I will state again..for those who read..This isn't about out of stealth combat..this is an idea..about improving stealth..
Now it aint that hard..and many play WE or WHs. and im dealing with the stealth stuff. and not out of stealth combat.
Can we please reach a modicum of level ground here, that instead of getting riled up and start throwing out crap , that doesn't even deal with what I said? Really? Can we do that? Can you do that?
1. AP is a bar that determines the tempo of the entire engagement. You stated you want AP drain to not be a thing during stealth, the only logical reasoning for wanting that is you want to use more AP outside of stealth. Executes are part of your class mechanic to make up for some of that AP use while stealthing into position.
2. 65 AP to enter stealth would be more costly for skilled WH/WEs than current iteration since you wouldn't generate that 65 AP back.
3. You are the one not applying all the context of your class versus all the context of healers. You then get defensive when people point out the flaws in your logic and bring up the things you obviously have missed.
4. (You stopped numbering) Your post is about stealth and the duration of it, but these things aren't in a vacuum. You have things that are a part of your class that are designed to be in sync with other mechanics of your class. If you remove the AP cost of prolonged stealth, you need to then address the ap reductions your class has that balance out that cost (and reward good play).
5. I didn't strawman your post. My second paragraph replies to every point you made in the OP. Also you did not reply to my second paragraph, so it is in fact you who is guilty of strawmanning a post.
6. See rebuttal point number 1 as to why I listed the out of stealth abilities in regard to your proposed change.
7. I have only kept my posts within the confines of the debate you have listed. You brought healers into the thread, and debated it further. So I added the information that was posted. Also you fail to realize the many systems that make up your class and how they interact.
8. Out of Stealth combat, once again, relies on AP. AP is part of your gripe about current implementation of stealth. No discussion about stealth's overall AP cost could realistically happen without also talking about general combat.
9. See above.
10. The last sentence is a personal attack against another poster. You have not entertained any of the ideas presented by others in the thread, or even discussed their rebuttals in any meaningful way.
11. (Edit) I also forgot somethings about your class. You have a 50% ap cost reduction when first leaving stealth IF you get your opener off. And that opener also doesn't cost anymore AP. These things would need to be looked at in regards to changing stealth's cost.
This isn't numbered since it isn't a rebuttal. This thread is also located in the wrong forums. It belongs to gameplay and balance discussion so it can be moderated better. Although, it is unlikely to see the light of day if proposed by you given the poor forum and discussion etiquette you have conducted in this thread thus far.
I just wanted to chime in on why stealth works the way it does in war. The game was originally not going to have stealth in at all. Mythic even advertised this as a feature of the game. Thing is, in beta, we and wh melted too fast. So, as a fix, they were given stealth. That is why stealth works as it does...it is merely a way to close the gap. This is also why a berserker like witch elves ate stealthy ninjas in the game
Sure and lets add a 65 AP cost onto your stealth ability that has ZERO activation cost. (65 ap cost is for group heal, your stealth makes you invisible to multiple targets, only fitting). Also we are going to have to remove that CORE ap cost reduction on all of your finishers since we are balancing you towards healers and their ap even though the mechanics are entirely different. That's the rest of your "logically speaking"
To address all of your post, stealth is designed to be different in this game. So stop comparing it to other games. Stealth is a positioning tool utilized by your class to assist in killing your target. You have an aoe detaunt that lasts a full 15s, a root/snare immunity, and a self-knockback to assist you in fleeing from an engagement when your target's allies decide to come kill you. Also stealth as currently implemented gives you the upperhand as you suggested it should, it comes at the cost of using it at the correct time to minimize your loss (aka skill)
Ok. Obviously, you're missing the point. Because 1. Executables are only done out of stealth. 2. I would be fine with stealth was perma and it cost 65 AP to enter perma stealth. 3. I had used healers for a few things..which obviously, you take out of any context, and not even was implying any of that. You know exactly what I was talking about. And as an adult..i expect that you respond with not so outlandish and imply many things which I did not state. You know it was about stealth and the duration of it.
So you respond entirely with strawman of my post.
But, i'd like to know why those other abilities would be a problem with perma stealth? you talked about them, and listed them..knowing full well, they don't deal with stealth, but out of stealth combat.
I am not dealing with out of stealth combat..but rather the duration of stealth..You see what im doin here? you guys hate any idea about stealthers..and get so riled up, about any improvement or changes to stealthers...that it seems that so far..most of you, have not done anything to try to improve..stealth..but show your complaints and more excuses about stuff, knowing full well, what I stated...
I will state again..for those who read..This isn't about out of stealth combat..this is an idea..about improving stealth..
Now it aint that hard..and many play WE or WHs. and im dealing with the stealth stuff. and not out of stealth combat.
Can we please reach a modicum of level ground here, that instead of getting riled up and start throwing out crap , that doesn't even deal with what I said? Really? Can we do that? Can you do that?
1. AP is a bar that determines the tempo of the entire engagement. You stated you want AP drain to not be a thing during stealth, the only logical reasoning for wanting that is you want to use more AP outside of stealth. Executes are part of your class mechanic to make up for some of that AP use while stealthing into position.
2. 65 AP to enter stealth would be more costly for skilled WH/WEs than current iteration since you wouldn't generate that 65 AP back.
3. You are the one not applying all the context of your class versus all the context of healers. You then get defensive when people point out the flaws in your logic and bring up the things you obviously have missed.
4. (You stopped numbering) Your post is about stealth and the duration of it, but these things aren't in a vacuum. You have things that are a part of your class that are designed to be in sync with other mechanics of your class. If you remove the AP cost of prolonged stealth, you need to then address the ap reductions your class has that balance out that cost (and reward good play).
5. I didn't strawman your post. My second paragraph replies to every point you made in the OP. Also you did not reply to my second paragraph, so it is in fact you who is guilty of strawmanning a post.
6. See rebuttal point number 1 as to why I listed the out of stealth abilities in regard to your proposed change.
7. I have only kept my posts within the confines of the debate you have listed. You brought healers into the thread, and debated it further. So I added the information that was posted. Also you fail to realize the many systems that make up your class and how they interact.
8. Out of Stealth combat, once again, relies on AP. AP is part of your gripe about current implementation of stealth. No discussion about stealth's overall AP cost could realistically happen without also talking about general combat.
9. See above.
10. The last sentence is a personal attack against another poster. You have not entertained any of the ideas presented by others in the thread, or even discussed their rebuttals in any meaningful way.
This isn't numbered since it isn't a rebuttal. This thread is also located in the wrong forums. It belongs to gameplay and balance discussion so it can be moderated better. Although, it is unlikely to see the light of day if proposed by you given the poor forum and discussion etiquette you have conducted in this thread thus far.
ok. the numbering system isn't required..and ill go thru with your post.
1, I agree on.
on two, why cant we regenerate AP? Why must it be that?
On three, I only was implying a few things, mainly about AP usage during stealth, and when I mentioned healers..im sure that set some off..many play healers..but many missed the point. I was not at any time wanting healers to be a baseline.
on 4, I understand what you say, and I did stop numbering. But that isn't the point..because its not about numbering whether I stopped or not. As to further explain, I would be fine if executables didn't have the AP reducution..but since executables are only used out of main combat, and apply at anytime , and not only during stealth.
on 5, Again, you have read exactly what I stated..and you started go way off. Since the idea is about duration of stealth, and more along the lines of , we'll steal your AP for stealthing. Knowing full well, AP is vital, and if you cant reach your target , stealth is either wasted, or you're left with 1/2 AP left..which still, even with reductions..doesn't amount to much.
on 7 You're right I did..and I bet that riled some up. because looking at posts..they didn't want to actually engage in anything than their own post and run off. However..i believe there still lies that issue. healers are not punished for healing. and I wasn't suggesting that healers do actually get punished for anything..i enjoy a healer as well. and this goes back to , you seen what Ive read..and then you started blaring out stuff..one of which I agreed to..and the rest I dismissed
on 8, yes, we fully agree on that AP, and concerning general combat, what much would change? the fact that stealthers would be able to have full AP to enter combat like everyone else unless they are already in combat fighting?
on 10 the last sentence isn't a personal attack..because its obvious, some have posted with no inclination of even dealing with what I specifically stated. Its not a personal attack that some get riled up and its obvious they don't want to even talk about it. and then question the reason they would be a on a forum.
and thank you for telling , that this should have been posted in balance and game issues.
Ummagumma wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:58 pm
I just wanted to chime in on why stealth works the way it does in war. The game was originally not going to have stealth in at all. Mythic even advertised this as a feature of the game. Thing is, in beta, we and wh melted too fast. So, as a fix, they were given stealth. That is why stealth works as it does...it is merely a way to close the gap. This is also why a berserker like witch elves ate stealthy ninjas in the game
diedrake wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:19 am
I loved stealth back on live when it was what 10 or 15 secs... Now thats when using stealth was more tactical.
so if lessening time is more "tactical" lets make it 5 secs? because being honest, if stealth is only that long, it takes an avg about 15 secs to get to your target..you'd already have to be in range of any aoe move they could use..
