Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[Penril]

If AoE is so damn important in RvR, here is an idea: instead of giving WH/WE more AoE options, how about giving them something to counter AoE?

Example: Seeker's Triumph - Seeker's Blade will now confuse the victim, making their AoE attacks hurt his allies as well*.


*I assume this is possible with client control? But if not.... you get what i meant with that example. That, to me, is wayyyy more interesting than "gimme moar AoE skillzz pwease".

[roadkillrobin]

If AoE is so damn important in RvR, here is an idea: instead of giving WH/WE more AoE options, how about giving them something to counter AoE?

Example: Seeker's Triumph - Seeker's Blade will now confuse the victim, making their AoE attacks hurt his allies as well*.


*I assume this is possible with client control? But if not.... you get what i meant with that example. That, to me, is wayyyy more interesting than "gimme moar AoE skillzz pwease".

It's a intreasting idea to play around with actually.
Like a AoE version of Fanatical Zeal or Burn Armor.
Personally I think moast of Suffering/Inquisition tree could probobly be rebuilt to just hit 9 targets within 30 feets without being busted with the exception for Healdebuff probobly.

[Vayra]

But you're assuming people are just going to run into your AOE bubble? That's unrealistic to think so, all you're going to do is farm unorganized pugs, the very same thing other people have been accusing single target specs of.

No, then the bomb squad moves to them. You can farm pugs with this method, or fight organized groups. Only difference is how many you can kill. Against an organized wb it's all about positioning and who gets an early advantage. Against pugs you can farm hundreds. Back on live I think our record was about 250-300 (unique) kills in a minute or two, with only our 24 man wb. I know other guilds had similar experiences.

I don't think you realize just how strong bombing was on live. It's a bit weaker here due to some changes (especially disrupt) and generally lower coordination. But it's still the strongest tactic for wb scale.

[scatterthewinds]

But you're assuming people are just going to run into your AOE bubble? That's unrealistic to think so, all you're going to do is farm unorganized pugs, the very same thing other people have been accusing single target specs of.

No, then the bomb squad moves to them. You can farm pugs with this method, or fight organized groups. Only difference is how many you can kill. Against an organized wb it's all about positioning and who gets an early advantage. Against pugs you can farm hundreds. Back on live I think our record was about 250-300 (unique) kills in a minute or two, with only our 24 man wb. I know other guilds had similar experiences.

I don't think you realize just how strong bombing was on live. It's a bit weaker here due to some changes (especially disrupt) and generally lower coordination. But it's still the strongest tactic for wb scale.

This isn't live.

If bomb group approaches you, you kite. There's ALWAYS an opportunity for counter attack at the right moment.

[roadkillrobin]

But you're assuming people are just going to run into your AOE bubble? That's unrealistic to think so, all you're going to do is farm unorganized pugs, the very same thing other people have been accusing single target specs of.

No, then the bomb squad moves to them. You can farm pugs with this method, or fight organized groups. Only difference is how many you can kill. Against an organized wb it's all about positioning and who gets an early advantage. Against pugs you can farm hundreds. Back on live I think our record was about 250-300 (unique) kills in a minute or two, with only our 24 man wb. I know other guilds had similar experiences.

I don't think you realize just how strong bombing was on live. It's a bit weaker here due to some changes (especially disrupt) and generally lower coordination. But it's still the strongest tactic for wb scale.

This isn't live.

If bomb group approaches you, you kite. There's ALWAYS an opportunity for counter attack at the right moment.

They wont care if you kite. They go for objectives if played right. Also you will get magneted/rifted/staggered if you try to kite vs a good warband.

[altharion1]

I think LoB wiping full warbands from both Deep and Dry and Phalanx with our 10 man, on multiple occasions, shows there is some truth in the strength of ST in the ST v AoE debate.

[Tarantoga]

I think LoB wiping full warbands from both Deep and Dry and Phalanx with our 10 man, on multiple occasions, shows there is some truth in the strength of ST in the ST v AoE debate.

a video of it would be great...

[Culdu]

I see two different topics talked about here, so I split my reply in

Class Balance: should every class be able to be useful in every situation (small scale, 6er, Wb)

and

Game Balance: Perfomance of classes and individual skills compared to other classes and their skills.

Class Balance:
In my opinion, each class should offer a specific playstyle and pros and cons, otherwise it would be choose tank,dd or heal. Every class should be useful in a specific 6 man. Definitely not saying it should be useful in every 6 man, but there has to be a mix with other classes that works good in a 6 man to be able to make Dungeons, Scs and Open to some extent, to have all options to get gear.

I don’t think, that every class should be able to be traded vs same sort in a Warband or Zerg environment. If you take a WE or WH in a Warband should it be his job to AOE bomb like a BW or wouldn’t it be more suiting if he scouts for you? Would the only reason to take a lion to have another aoe or should he pull out key enemies?

Sure massing only best aoe class is currently a good option, and that’s why some classes are not really preferred in WB environment. These classes have other specific niches they work very well, which is normally the reasons why that specific class is chosen to be played. And in their environment they can help the war effort, or better spoken ... gain contribution for rolls. So i see no real reason why every class should be perfect for every Warband.

Game Balance

Game balance is always chopping the top and feeding the bottom.

The performance of a class and their individual skills has to be balanced compared to other classes, taking into account which synergy effects you could have. This is mainly on a group basis but also includes synergies in a full warband. To find the point between good in a pug environment and not too good with all synergies used is not easy but the way to go. But the side of the bar that shouldn't be exeeded is the "all synergies used". Even if annoying a class that overperforms in smallscale or underperforms in a pug environment has not such a big impact on the whole game that a class is a monster in grp/wb environment.
So it is definetly better to have the problem on the pug side, instead of creating monsters in a premade environment. As a reminder the 2 knight 2 wp 2 bw/2slayer back on live.
I really appreciate what and how balance was done here so far. Much better than anything on live. Sometimes synergies are overlooked but that is normally fixed soon afterwards. Only thing kind of broken atm is smallscale / solo roaming due to the "no risk extreme dmg class"

So yes, 6 vs 6 is the first to be looked at in a balance discussion to get a view of possible synergies, but it definetly shouldn't be the only thing looked at.

Greetings Starilas

[Ramasee]

That's a subjective opinion. If you look at total damage output as a cumulative number than AOE damage is obviously higher, but its also equally mitigated by AOE heals. However... if enemy healers are AOE healing, they're not really single target healing. And as we know, damage that doesn't actually result in kills is moot. There is no better method of actually securing kills than with single target damage, it is for this reason all 6 mans spec single target as oppose to aoe. Now whether your standard WB level WH/WE is good enough at their class to hit high single target numbers on suitable targets is a different story entirely, but as someone said above, you balance based on class potential, not average skill level of the player.

AoE hits up to 9 targets in an area. AoE healing wp/dok requires short range but will heal 9 allies. Group healing (which is what I think you meant) heals 6 groupmates, but 2 of them are healers who probably aren't being bombed. Also rarely are all 8 healers in the warband AoE healing, usually AMs are doing ST, RPs/Zealots are proccing 25% healing from crits using AoE and then are spot healing ST as well, with WPs/DoKs doing the primary group burst healing. (Shamans are doing shaman things).

Focused AoE Damage far surpasses group healing which is why bombing generally works. Add morales on top of that and game over. Also group heals are generally more resource expensive that AoE damage abilities.

If AoE is so damn important in RvR, here is an idea: instead of giving WH/WE more AoE options, how about giving them something to counter AoE?

Example: Seeker's Triumph - Seeker's Blade will now confuse the victim, making their AoE attacks hurt his allies as well*.


*I assume this is possible with client control? But if not.... you get what i meant with that example. That, to me, is wayyyy more interesting than "gimme moar AoE skillzz pwease".

Or other AoE utilities such as non-stacking armor debuff, since thats fairly rare. AoE anti-crit debuff. 25% aoe healing received healing debuff. Converting AoE damage the WH takes into more self damage on ST the WH can do (so he kills single targets faster while being bombed). AoE anti-channel zone like a glyph/smoke bomb (to remove HTL for a few seconds, or PBAoE channels). There are quite a few things that could be done for WH/WE that isn't just make a BW/Sorc

However that needs to be brought up by a WH/WE in the balance forums.

[Arconnn]

oof oof oof dfasdasdasvfdavdasbvdsbv