WHY nerf Runefang???

[Ekundu01]

KotBS didn't deserve the nerf. Was not overperforming. Even if that was the case, which I repeat wasn't, there is no reason to make the tactic turn 180 and take out the extra parry it provided, which was the reason why it was a good tactic, cause it mirrored the Chosen parry buff.

The 240 WS that runefang used to provide was = to about 10% parry in PVE. In rvr you would be lucky to get any bonus parry from WS because it has to check against your opponents Str. The only way you would be having bonus parry from WS in rvr is if you were fighting a turtle tank that has no str in its build and you stacked nothing but WS in all talisman slots. VS any other Mdps even in merc gear would have more str then your WS making your bonus parry from WS so minor that you would see no difference.

Before the last patch i was stacking WS in all slots on my chosen and could only reach 600 WS with daemonclaw proc of 154WS. Stacking WS for parry on a tank for rvr is like trying to stack willpower for disrupt.

The real survival knights got from Runefang was the INI. That was = to at least a -5% chance to be crit at 240 INI.

Now that daemonclaw lost its INI buff i see no reason to run it on the chosen. I would rather have the version of runefang knight has now over the daemonclaw verson chosen has now. Toughness and INI buff on a tank even as a tankdps is way better then str and ws. If you only spec up to daemonclaw you only get about 20 extra damage a hit when it goes off with a 2hander equipped and about 7% armor bypass from WS.

TLDR: If you are stacking Weapon Skill as a tank to give you parry in rvr you are going to have a bad time.

[heybaws]

You needed extra parry to evade guard damage both in RvR and smallscale. God this thread analytics is beyond garbage. Perfect example why devs shouldn't drop they ideas here for open discussion.

[Ototo]

KotBS didn't deserve the nerf. Was not overperforming. Even if that was the case, which I repeat wasn't, there is no reason to make the tactic turn 180 and take out the extra parry it provided, which was the reason why it was a good tactic, cause it mirrored the Chosen parry buff.

The 240 WS that runefang used to provide was = to about 10% parry in PVE. In rvr you would be lucky to get any bonus parry from WS because it has to check against your opponents Str. The only way you would be having bonus parry from WS in rvr is if you were fighting a turtle tank that has no str in its build and you stacked nothing but WS in all talisman slots. VS any other Mdps even in merc gear would have more str then your WS making your bonus parry from WS so minor that you would see no difference.

Before the last patch i was stacking WS in all slots on my chosen and could only reach 600 WS with daemonclaw proc of 154WS. Stacking WS for parry on a tank for rvr is like trying to stack willpower for disrupt.

The real survival knights got from Runefang was the INI. That was = to at least a -5% chance to be crit at 240 INI.

Now that daemonclaw lost its INI buff i see no reason to run it on the chosen. I would rather have the version of runefang knight has now over the daemonclaw verson chosen has now. Toughness and INI buff on a tank even as a tankdps is way better then str and ws. If you only spec up to daemonclaw you only get about 20 extra damage a hit when it goes off with a 2hander equipped and about 7% armor bypass from WS.

TLDR: If you are stacking Weapon Skill as a tank to give you parry in rvr you are going to have a bad time.

I strongly disagree with the underlined parts, mostly cause those things are basic tank build. I would normally go and explain, but I don't feel like, sorry. Yet, you made your points very clear, and I respect your opinion, that I don't share at all anyways.

Also, why stack WS in an offensive Chosen? It has several attacks that are magic damage. You only ever need str to increase the dmg, while KotBS needs both str and WS to go for solo or small scale off-tank.

Edit: Heybaws explained one the points.

[Ekundu01]

KotBS didn't deserve the nerf. Was not overperforming. Even if that was the case, which I repeat wasn't, there is no reason to make the tactic turn 180 and take out the extra parry it provided, which was the reason why it was a good tactic, cause it mirrored the Chosen parry buff.

The 240 WS that runefang used to provide was = to about 10% parry in PVE. In rvr you would be lucky to get any bonus parry from WS because it has to check against your opponents Str. The only way you would be having bonus parry from WS in rvr is if you were fighting a turtle tank that has no str in its build and you stacked nothing but WS in all talisman slots. VS any other Mdps even in merc gear would have more str then your WS making your bonus parry from WS so minor that you would see no difference.

Before the last patch i was stacking WS in all slots on my chosen and could only reach 600 WS with daemonclaw proc of 154WS. Stacking WS for parry on a tank for rvr is like trying to stack willpower for disrupt.

The real survival knights got from Runefang was the INI. That was = to at least a -5% chance to be crit at 240 INI.

Now that daemonclaw lost its INI buff i see no reason to run it on the chosen. I would rather have the version of runefang knight has now over the daemonclaw verson chosen has now. Toughness and INI buff on a tank even as a tankdps is way better then str and ws. If you only spec up to daemonclaw you only get about 20 extra damage a hit when it goes off with a 2hander equipped and about 7% armor bypass from WS.

TLDR: If you are stacking Weapon Skill as a tank to give you parry in rvr you are going to have a bad time.

I strongly disagree with the underlined parts, mostly cause those things are basic tank build. I would normally go and explain, but I don't feel like, sorry. Yet, you made your points very clear, and I respect your opinion, that I don't share at all anyways.

Also, why stack WS in an offensive Chosen? It has several attacks that are magic damage. You only ever need str to increase the dmg, while KotBS needs both str and WS to go for solo or small scale off-tank.

Edit: Heybaws explained one the points.

You don't have to agree with my points but it is how rvr defenses are calculated unless there was some big change in game mechanics from live that are not mentioned on the wiki. I suspect though that they didn't overhaul how that works.

As far as stacking Weapon skill on an offensive chosen that was before the new tactic for spirit conversion. Before the tactic or if you are not using it, you need weapon skill for armor bypass. I tested both stacking str and ws and the armor bypass came out on top because it worked for most of your skills and auto attack. Unless something specificly says it is spirit damage on the tool tip it is physical damage. So the only spirit attacks you have without the new tactic is Seeping wound (dot), Quake (stagger), Relentless (if you use the tactic), both auras that do damage, the movement tick from palsy (but not the initial hit), the damage add proc from tooth (again not the initial hit), bane shield, and Ravage, also rending blade but i didn't pick that up. Everything else is all physical damage.

Chosen has a decent rotation that has quite a bit of physical damage attacks in it so it made sense to get as much armor bypass as i could. When you see just how minor str increases your damage on a tank it just made sense to stack armor bypass instead since everyone uses armor pots.

[Boursk]

/threadlock

[Ototo]

Spoiler:

The 240 WS that runefang used to provide was = to about 10% parry in PVE. In rvr you would be lucky to get any bonus parry from WS because it has to check against your opponents Str. The only way you would be having bonus parry from WS in rvr is if you were fighting a turtle tank that has no str in its build and you stacked nothing but WS in all talisman slots. VS any other Mdps even in merc gear would have more str then your WS making your bonus parry from WS so minor that you would see no difference.

Before the last patch i was stacking WS in all slots on my chosen and could only reach 600 WS with daemonclaw proc of 154WS. Stacking WS for parry on a tank for rvr is like trying to stack willpower for disrupt.

The real survival knights got from Runefang was the INI. That was = to at least a -5% chance to be crit at 240 INI.

Now that daemonclaw lost its INI buff i see no reason to run it on the chosen. I would rather have the version of runefang knight has now over the daemonclaw verson chosen has now. Toughness and INI buff on a tank even as a tankdps is way better then str and ws. If you only spec up to daemonclaw you only get about 20 extra damage a hit when it goes off with a 2hander equipped and about 7% armor bypass from WS.

TLDR: If you are stacking Weapon Skill as a tank to give you parry in rvr you are going to have a bad time.

I strongly disagree with the underlined parts, mostly cause those things are basic tank build. I would normally go and explain, but I don't feel like, sorry. Yet, you made your points very clear, and I respect your opinion, that I don't share at all anyways.

Also, why stack WS in an offensive Chosen? It has several attacks that are magic damage. You only ever need str to increase the dmg, while KotBS needs both str and WS to go for solo or small scale off-tank.

Edit: Heybaws explained one the points.

You don't have to agree with my points but it is how rvr defenses are calculated unless there was some big change in game mechanics from live that are not mentioned on the wiki. I suspect though that they didn't overhaul how that works.

As far as stacking Weapon skill on an offensive chosen that was before the new tactic for spirit conversion. Before the tactic or if you are not using it, you need weapon skill for armor bypass. I tested both stacking str and ws and the armor bypass came out on top because it worked for most of your skills and auto attack. Unless something specificly says it is spirit damage on the tool tip it is physical damage. So the only spirit attacks you have without the new tactic is Seeping wound (dot), Quake (stagger), Relentless (if you use the tactic), both auras that do damage, the movement tick from palsy (but not the initial hit), the damage add proc from tooth (again not the initial hit), bane shield, and Ravage, also rending blade but i didn't pick that up. Everything else is all physical damage.

Chosen has a decent rotation that has quite a bit of physical damage attacks in it so it made sense to get as much armor bypass as i could. When you see just how minor str increases your damage on a tank it just made sense to stack armor bypass instead since everyone uses armor pots.

Ok, gonna be fast:

Toughness = capped very low. Even with basic tank gear and zero talismans you are probably over the cap and able to absorb reductions in every tank of the game.

Parry = capped very high. Extremely difficult to get even stacking max talis. Here is where tactics go if you have the chance.

Init = very impactful stat. Even with a low amount you get a lot of return, most of which you probably don't even need even to counter enemy DPSs own crit.

So far you could go str in KotBS and Chosent and it would work decently. Now in KotBS you need both str and WS to counter it, and init is pretty trashy if you have renown skills, so 2 out of 2 stats from Runefang are nearly pointless. That is why it's a crap tactic and you would never spend the mastery points and the tactic slot. Nobody in his own mind would do.

I'm not even gonna enter in the skill part; you listed 9 skills using magic damage, and 2 more that you can convert. That's "several" to me.

[Ekundu01]

Ok, gonna be fast:

Toughness = capped very low. Even with basic tank gear and zero talismans you are probably over the cap and able to absorb reductions in every tank of the game.

Parry = capped very high. Extremely difficult to get even stacking max talis. Here is where tactics go if you have the chance.

Init = very impactful stat. Even with a low amount you get a lot of return, most of which you probably don't even need even to counter enemy DPSs own crit.

So far you could go str in KotBS and Chosent and it would work decently. Now in KotBS you need both str and WS to counter it, and init is pretty trashy if you have renown skills, so 2 out of 2 stats from Runefang are nearly pointless. That is why it's a crap tactic and you would never spend the mastery points and the tactic slot. Nobody in his own mind would do.

I'm not even gonna enter in the skill part; you listed 9 skills using magic damage, and 2 more that you can convert. That's "several" to me.

So you are saying you are capped toughness at 1050 without talismans in basic tank gear? I find that very hard to believe unless you are playing a blackguard.

The only dependable parry in rvr against other players is from renown and gear. The parry from WS is not dependable when facing players with str higher then your WS.

Ini is very effective because you can go into the negative crit chance even though you can't see it and have to do the math yourself. Also if you can get enough stats from gear like negative chance to be crit and not have to spend renown on that it opens up more options like being able to dump those points towards crit chance for yourself.

[Ototo]

Spoiler:

Ok, gonna be fast:

Toughness = capped very low. Even with basic tank gear and zero talismans you are probably over the cap and able to absorb reductions in every tank of the game.

Parry = capped very high. Extremely difficult to get even stacking max talis. Here is where tactics go if you have the chance.

Init = very impactful stat. Even with a low amount you get a lot of return, most of which you probably don't even need even to counter enemy DPSs own crit.

So far you could go str in KotBS and Chosent and it would work decently. Now in KotBS you need both str and WS to counter it, and init is pretty trashy if you have renown skills, so 2 out of 2 stats from Runefang are nearly pointless. That is why it's a crap tactic and you would never spend the mastery points and the tactic slot. Nobody in his own mind would do.

I'm not even gonna enter in the skill part; you listed 9 skills using magic damage, and 2 more that you can convert. That's "several" to me.

So you are saying you are capped toughness at 1050 without talismans in basic tank gear? I find that very hard to believe unless you are playing a blackguard.

The only dependable parry in rvr against other players is from renown and gear. The parry from WS is not dependable when facing players with str higher then your WS.

Ini is very effective because you can go into the negative crit chance even though you can't see it and have to do the math yourself. Also if you can get enough stats from gear like negative chance to be crit and not have to spend renown on that it opens up more options like being able to dump those points towards crit chance for yourself.

Cap is 700 something. It was changed. Be my guest to find it, cause search seem to give me a gateway timeout now: https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... ghness+cap

No.

I can do the math, but you can't if you think that it works how you described in your posts.

[Armoz]

Spoiler:

You obviously don't play order at the same time than me. I'm lucky if there are 4 tanks in the warband that I'm part of. The trouble here is raw numbers, and nerfing the KotBS just made the trouble worse.

Also, thanks for, you know, casually insult anyone that plays a tank in order, which I assure you that the vast majority are SnB, even most of SMs, while also casually insulting every tank player in the game that doesn't play like you exactly want them to. Look at those bastards! Enjoying the game! How dare they! This game is not to have fun, since when were games supposed to be for that? This game is for me to enjoy my class and everyone to support me, nothing more!

Dont get me wrong im not trying to insult anyone! But you are totally wrong about "majority" There are so many 2hander tanks during EU times and we lack a solid group composition, every group in a WB should be built the same way ranked SC! 2 tanks 2 heals and 2 dps, but we know that its not possible most of the time! i dont mind a good 2hander KotB who knows how to position himself so he can get his utilty down and help SnB get into their position! And you can have fun all you want, but us in RvR are sick of people whining about dying too quick or running away from fights! Good utility tanks are awesome but not when they pretend to be DPS!

TL;DR "I'm not trying to insult people but..."

You're really good at taking things out of context! Keep at it

[Ototo]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Dont get me wrong im not trying to insult anyone! But you are totally wrong about "majority" There are so many 2hander tanks during EU times and we lack a solid group composition, every group in a WB should be built the same way ranked SC! 2 tanks 2 heals and 2 dps, but we know that its not possible most of the time! i dont mind a good 2hander KotB who knows how to position himself so he can get his utilty down and help SnB get into their position! And you can have fun all you want, but us in RvR are sick of people whining about dying too quick or running away from fights! Good utility tanks are awesome but not when they pretend to be DPS!

TL;DR "I'm not trying to insult people but..."

You're really good at taking things out of context! Keep at it

Yup, I'm extremely good at taking out of context the words "stupid", "lazy", etc...