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Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

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BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#51 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:45 am

Sulorie wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:44 am

This cap is only relevant in edge cases, which virtually never happen. Toughness capped at 1050 does its job just as good as before.

When damage is so low, that linear damage reduction is too efficient, then the hits were not dangerous to begin with.

Someone claimed Blork was a S-tier or A-tier or something and IB was B tier or C tier or something, and it was partly due to it's tankiness. Toughness mitigates damage. I am not sure how it is calculated, but if damage mitigation occurs after or before toughness mitigation, the total damage mitigated will be higher than any toughness cap.

wonshot wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am

Warriorpriest is simply just the main healer for roaming 24v24. The fighting is fast pased, the criticalmass is mainly coming from raw DD but also a big portion of dot ticks(group clense <3). Having just óne second on a group heal while being able to resource manage so much easier with Smite on a 24targt aoe cap just makes for a perfect healer.


Warrior Priest is far from perfect. In open field, Grace has the highest healing per second, but salvation is pretty far behind that. The main issue is all group heals are for party only except one skill which has a one minute cooldown, grace does that better and I wouldn't build any group heal WP without sacrifice (and you can't use the book for that). I personally found a ST healer with some group heal capabilities generally better than being a group healer with some ST abilities (if order could find a way to make Grace work, I would maybe change my mind).

wonshot wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am

Running full BW/WP/knight warband comp would not be bad, probably be like a top3 of all Min/Max comps tbh. But my personal favorit would be a WP+ RP in each group, 5BW, 1dps runie, 2 slayers for shatterd limbs front & backline, and a knight + SM in each group for statvalue and utility.



Any destro warband pushing the backline would only need to ignore kotbs entirely (which people should be doing anyway) to melt the BWs in seconds, you could probably just CC the warrior priests without even bothering to kill them. Might work in a funnel.

wonshot wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am

MinMaxing on a warband scale is really hard to calculate.



Raw healing per second is relatively easy. Raw damage per second is easy enough.

The main problems are 1. calculating the kotbs/chosen aura effects on raw healing and raw damage output (e.g., how much damage will warrior priest mitigate by increasing armour by 600). People are just guessing they are better than having, say, an ib/bg assisting a slayer/choppa. 2. calculating the impact of other buffs for damage/healing output.
Last edited by BeautfulToad on Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Shooshpanzerer
Posts: 65

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#52 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:01 am

Ototo wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:15 am
You obviously haven't checked the tactics of this class, but you definitely should. I think that you think too low from them, and both classes are incredibly powerful and have a lot of warband tools.
The question weren't can't you take it, it was "why should one take it over another BW/Sorc/Mara".

Same with PUG+ classes. They can go, just not min/max choice. PUG+ is still 2/2/2 with comms, just more relaxed and not min/max.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#53 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:04 am

Shooshpanzerer wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:01 am

The question weren't can't you take it, it was "why should one take it over another BW/Sorc/Mara".

Same with PUG+ classes. They can go, just not min/max choice. PUG+ is still 2/2/2 with comms, just more relaxed and not min/max.
If you rank slayer and choppa aoe specs as unsuitable for "serious" warband fights, you might as well just pick classes at random tbh.

Shooshpanzerer
Posts: 65

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#54 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:20 am

BeautfulToad wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:04 am
If you rank slayer and choppa aoe specs as unsuitable for "serious" warband fights, you might as well just pick classes at random tbh.
Again, they are fine, just BW/Sorc/Mara are better.

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Glorian
Posts: 4452

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#55 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:11 pm

Dwarf Warband:

S-Tier: IB, Engi, RP, Slayer
A-Tier: none
B-Tier: none
C-Tier: none
D-Tier: Elgi

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1739

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#56 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:30 pm

The problem is, on each side there is the "first best" pick for a pure DPS slot (BW + Sorc). If you stack 8 of these, you reach theoretical maximum damage per second possible for a warband.
Then there are utility class picks, on Destro they are Mara and Zdps. On order, Engi and Slayer.
Losing 1-3 dps spots for an utility class is considered often a good choice, as you cannot always count on raw dmg win condition, but want to bring specialist tools (zealot hdbuff + winds + corp debuff + arm debuff) or Engi (pierce defences, landmine, disorient, stagger, pull). However if you stack too many utility classes, your ability to kill starts suffering.

Which is why you want just maybe 6 Bws, 1 Engi, 1 Slayer on Order, trading 2 dps spots for utility potential.
Whereas on Destro you trade 2-4 spots to get more utility, 1 Zdps, 1-3 Maras.

There exist other utility classes as well, but they all come with the issue of not being "first best" nor even "second best" picks for that role. Choppa becomes 2nd best dmg dealer only at close range when compared to Sorc, same with Slayer and Bw. Mara brings far better utility arsenal than Choppa and far superior survivability. Melee Squig AoE potential is meanwhile more limited, and their utility is also somewhat more limited than Maras. Magus as well suffers from not being as versatile as a Mara, even if they are 2nd best pick for ranged bombing.
On Order you then have the "pls reroll"-classes, meaning AoE WL with very limited utility and less dmg, AoE WH with very limited AoE and utility, and AoE SW with very limited utility and mediocre dmg.

Can you stuff a warband full of squigs, choppas and WEs and kill stuff, sure you can. But with each pick of a non S/A tier class, you deviate further from 1st best and 2nd best picks and start lowering your warbands actual damage and utility arsenal potential.

But again, there might be different need for each class and their utility toolkit on a different day vs different enemy composition. If you know enemy has 0 SMs, suddenly mSH cd increaser has very limited opposition and can really hurt the enemy. If the enemy is planning on mostly fighting a siege, you might drop most of your melee and go pure ranged setup because melee just doesn't do much in some siege fights. Or if you plan for a pure 24v24, maybe you want a warband tailored purely for that need, and based on what enemy brings and what needs countering.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#57 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:53 pm

"Order should have warbands full of Bright Wizards because they do the most ranged damage ergo you don't need any other class. Any other class is just taking up spots for Bright Wizards. Tanks and healers are for those players that do not know how to play Bright Wizard yet, but adding any class that is not Bright Wizard is non-optimal and only impacts on raw dps. Only items you need are intelligence tallies. Destro don't have Bright Wizards thus they are very disadvantaged."

mubbl
Posts: 181

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#58 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:21 pm

Spoiler:
CountTalabecland wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:41 am
Spoiler:
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am
Spoiler:
BeautfulToad wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 am


No idea where you got those numbers (eg, rampage lasts 10s). I think slayer is good. But it does not have "insane ST burst", unless the 2handed build has a rotation I dont know about. Get to the choppa literally moves multiple people through the air meaning they cant do anything for 3-5 seconds. That is a top tier ability for a warband.

A lot of lists are just being used to bring up grudges people have with certain classes rather than based on any real analysis.
if you use rapmage in yellow rage it lasts for 20 sec.
order has better heal, so they can sustain slayers better then you can sustain a choppa, even you got a a wounds tactic.
GTDC deals dmg every 2!!!!!! even if you crit for 2k on paper that is not enough dmg. since you have to dived it by 2 to get dps or damage per cd.
GTDC choppa a channeling ability and there for easly countered interuppts -> not relaiable
rampage is relaiable and makes all your skills reliable on demand
its more like 3 sec pull not 5.
order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
PS. GTDC is a nice chasing ability
If GTDC is a “nice chasing ability” then Rampage is only a “nice versus mdps solo realm hero wanabes ability.” GTDC is a top tier ability that is better than rampage in warband fights.

Slayer is to be dropping everything it has on the backlines. Yes Rampage helps with bypass but Slayer does not have the AP or raw damage to melt through destro tanks with 10k+ wounds. If a Slayer is popping rampage to hit frontlines in WB then that person is wasted space in the warband. The best WB v. WB ability Slayer has is shatter limbs and dropping that on healers is 100% the priority over facerolling the keyboard while standing in front of the tank wall. Rampage is best against DoK to bypass random parrys in the swirling melee of blob v. Blob and I suppose to land some damage on whoever the AoE cap catches but is not nearly as powerful as dest makes it out to be.

GTDC is a pull/interrupt/stun that is excellent at disrupting group heal build ups. Futhermore, it is undefendable and you do not need to build/drop rage to get it like Rampage. Hell, GTDC is even good for pulling melee off your backlines to save your healers. It is a top tier swiss army knife of an ability that has made being anywhere near the frontline a nightmare for Runepriests (who have almost no oh **** CC unlike shaman/AM unless you count aoe knockback which is free immunities). Yes it can be interrupted but in a WB v. WB fight tanks cannot target and interrupt fast enough to stop 4+ choppas from doing it. Additionally, the first pull is near instant so that first one is going to land unless choppa just so happens to click the ability a second before randomly getting punted.

Its time for Destro to admit that GTDC is a class defining ability just as much as Rampage is instead of crying nerf rampage 24/7.
excuse me sir,
i never said its not a class defining abiltity, indeed i think it is.
but most of your arguments are a bit meh:
1. player failure/missbehave (like this RP argument) is not an argument. otherwise i would say pull? what pull? a bo just used aoe knockback gtdc is omega bad...
2. each side has at least one anti "crowd controll" effects.
3. a channeling spell vs a pretty strong selfbuff -> you can ramp up your dmg.
4. 13p dw condition vs. 6point all around ability. (=
5. you bring free immunities on the table in a gtdc argument :roll:
6. you can use insta cast while flying.
7. cant talk about the dmg, not enough time to push my slayer atm, but i am pretty sure he will be ahead of the choppa in aoe dps.
sure gtdc has it ups, but atleast as many downs, while rampage just gives you a 5 sec delayed 25% dmg mechanic and the option to just roll over your keyboard, no positining needed.

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kmark101
Posts: 236

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#59 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:03 pm

Glorian wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:11 pm
Dwarf Warband:

S-Tier: IB, Engi, RP, Slayer
A-Tier: none
B-Tier: none
C-Tier: none
D-Tier: Elgi


Words of wisdom!
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 403

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#60 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:32 am

Spoiler:
mubbl wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:21 pm
Spoiler:
CountTalabecland wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:41 am
Spoiler:
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am
Spoiler:
if you use rapmage in yellow rage it lasts for 20 sec.
order has better heal, so they can sustain slayers better then you can sustain a choppa, even you got a a wounds tactic.
GTDC deals dmg every 2!!!!!! even if you crit for 2k on paper that is not enough dmg. since you have to dived it by 2 to get dps or damage per cd.
GTDC choppa a channeling ability and there for easly countered interuppts -> not relaiable
rampage is relaiable and makes all your skills reliable on demand
its more like 3 sec pull not 5.
order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
PS. GTDC is a nice chasing ability
If GTDC is a “nice chasing ability” then Rampage is only a “nice versus mdps solo realm hero wanabes ability.” GTDC is a top tier ability that is better than rampage in warband fights.

Slayer is to be dropping everything it has on the backlines. Yes Rampage helps with bypass but Slayer does not have the AP or raw damage to melt through destro tanks with 10k+ wounds. If a Slayer is popping rampage to hit frontlines in WB then that person is wasted space in the warband. The best WB v. WB ability Slayer has is shatter limbs and dropping that on healers is 100% the priority over facerolling the keyboard while standing in front of the tank wall. Rampage is best against DoK to bypass random parrys in the swirling melee of blob v. Blob and I suppose to land some damage on whoever the AoE cap catches but is not nearly as powerful as dest makes it out to be.

GTDC is a pull/interrupt/stun that is excellent at disrupting group heal build ups. Futhermore, it is undefendable and you do not need to build/drop rage to get it like Rampage. Hell, GTDC is even good for pulling melee off your backlines to save your healers. It is a top tier swiss army knife of an ability that has made being anywhere near the frontline a nightmare for Runepriests (who have almost no oh **** CC unlike shaman/AM unless you count aoe knockback which is free immunities). Yes it can be interrupted but in a WB v. WB fight tanks cannot target and interrupt fast enough to stop 4+ choppas from doing it. Additionally, the first pull is near instant so that first one is going to land unless choppa just so happens to click the ability a second before randomly getting punted.

Its time for Destro to admit that GTDC is a class defining ability just as much as Rampage is instead of crying nerf rampage 24/7.
excuse me sir,
i never said its not a class defining abiltity, indeed i think it is.
but most of your arguments are a bit meh:
1. player failure/missbehave (like this RP argument) is not an argument. otherwise i would say pull? what pull? a bo just used aoe knockback gtdc is omega bad...
2. each side has at least one anti "crowd controll" effects.
3. a channeling spell vs a pretty strong selfbuff -> you can ramp up your dmg.
4. 13p dw condition vs. 6point all around ability. (=
5. you bring free immunities on the table in a gtdc argument :roll:
6. you can use insta cast while flying.
7. cant talk about the dmg, not enough time to push my slayer atm, but i am pretty sure he will be ahead of the choppa in aoe dps.
sure gtdc has it ups, but atleast as many downs, while rampage just gives you a 5 sec delayed 25% dmg mechanic and the option to just roll over your keyboard, no positining needed.
Again you are trying to portray Rampage as an "I win button." Positioning is definitely needed. If you are in a warband hitting the enemy tank wall, then your AoE is not landing on backlines unless they are standing within 30 ft and in front of you for some reason. So no, it is not a damage buff unless you are attacking melee classes who would otherwise parry. Try playing a Slayer in T2+ right now and then tell me how easy it is to pop rampage and push backlines and stay there to AoE while getting pulled constantly by choppa or knockbacked by MSH unending knockback abilities. While you're at it, please show me all the mdps you are allegedly bursting down with Rampage in Caledor Woods (spoiler alert, you can't if they are in a competent grp with guards and heals). So its not a win button in WB v WB and its not a win button in 6v6, so please show me why Dest is trying to get it nerfed constantly other than butt hurt over 1v1.

The # of points each ability costs is a moot point unless the trees were changed so that AoE Choppa/Slayer had to choose between things. As it currently stands, there is only 1 build for Slayer so whether Rampage is the 6 or 13 point ability you would still always be bringing it. Its not like you are sacrificing something to take GTDC, the top half of the left tree and the middle tree are pretty useless. The AoE build for both classes is still going to be take right tree and then left tree up to the heal debuff.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/71) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/74) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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