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Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

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mubbl
Posts: 225

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#61 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:18 am

Spoiler:
CountTalabecland wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:32 am
Spoiler:
mubbl wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:21 pm
Spoiler:
CountTalabecland wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:41 am
Spoiler:
If GTDC is a “nice chasing ability” then Rampage is only a “nice versus mdps solo realm hero wanabes ability.” GTDC is a top tier ability that is better than rampage in warband fights.

Slayer is to be dropping everything it has on the backlines. Yes Rampage helps with bypass but Slayer does not have the AP or raw damage to melt through destro tanks with 10k+ wounds. If a Slayer is popping rampage to hit frontlines in WB then that person is wasted space in the warband. The best WB v. WB ability Slayer has is shatter limbs and dropping that on healers is 100% the priority over facerolling the keyboard while standing in front of the tank wall. Rampage is best against DoK to bypass random parrys in the swirling melee of blob v. Blob and I suppose to land some damage on whoever the AoE cap catches but is not nearly as powerful as dest makes it out to be.

GTDC is a pull/interrupt/stun that is excellent at disrupting group heal build ups. Futhermore, it is undefendable and you do not need to build/drop rage to get it like Rampage. Hell, GTDC is even good for pulling melee off your backlines to save your healers. It is a top tier swiss army knife of an ability that has made being anywhere near the frontline a nightmare for Runepriests (who have almost no oh **** CC unlike shaman/AM unless you count aoe knockback which is free immunities). Yes it can be interrupted but in a WB v. WB fight tanks cannot target and interrupt fast enough to stop 4+ choppas from doing it. Additionally, the first pull is near instant so that first one is going to land unless choppa just so happens to click the ability a second before randomly getting punted.

Its time for Destro to admit that GTDC is a class defining ability just as much as Rampage is instead of crying nerf rampage 24/7.
excuse me sir,
i never said its not a class defining abiltity, indeed i think it is.
but most of your arguments are a bit meh:
1. player failure/missbehave (like this RP argument) is not an argument. otherwise i would say pull? what pull? a bo just used aoe knockback gtdc is omega bad...
2. each side has at least one anti "crowd controll" effects.
3. a channeling spell vs a pretty strong selfbuff -> you can ramp up your dmg.
4. 13p dw condition vs. 6point all around ability. (=
5. you bring free immunities on the table in a gtdc argument :roll:
6. you can use insta cast while flying.
7. cant talk about the dmg, not enough time to push my slayer atm, but i am pretty sure he will be ahead of the choppa in aoe dps.
sure gtdc has it ups, but atleast as many downs, while rampage just gives you a 5 sec delayed 25% dmg mechanic and the option to just roll over your keyboard, no positining needed.
Again you are trying to portray Rampage as an "I win button." Positioning is definitely needed. If you are in a warband hitting the enemy tank wall, then your AoE is not landing on backlines unless they are standing within 30 ft and in front of you for some reason. So no, it is not a damage buff unless you are attacking melee classes who would otherwise parry. Try playing a Slayer in T2+ right now and then tell me how easy it is to pop rampage and push backlines and stay there to AoE while getting pulled constantly by choppa or knockbacked by MSH unending knockback abilities. While you're at it, please show me all the mdps you are allegedly bursting down with Rampage in Caledor Woods (spoiler alert, you can't if they are in a competent grp with guards and heals). So its not a win button in WB v WB and its not a win button in 6v6, so please show me why Dest is trying to get it nerfed constantly other than butt hurt over 1v1.

The # of points each ability costs is a moot point unless the trees were changed so that AoE Choppa/Slayer had to choose between things. As it currently stands, there is only 1 build for Slayer so whether Rampage is the 6 or 13 point ability you would still always be bringing it. Its not like you are sacrificing something to take GTDC, the top half of the left tree and the middle tree are pretty useless. The AoE build for both classes is still going to be take right tree and then left tree up to the heal debuff.
i just said your arguments are weak and that rampage has certain advantages. While you are talking about a rp in the frontlines with no "oh oh" buttons, while rp has got like 6 buttons? or 8 gdtc at least instant death for all order from karaz-a-karak till arnheim. i said, i cant talk about the possible dmg, :roll: and since ramapage is giving you truestrike, that will define if its op and if anything would change in builds.
It looks more like you wanna cry about cc. :lol:
ps. did you try full invader slayer with crit boost/proc wb?

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Mystry
Posts: 384

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#62 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:44 am

My favorite classes are WH, SW, DPS WP and SM.

This thread makes me sad.

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Lithenir
Posts: 139

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#63 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:44 am

Mystry wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:44 am
My favorite classes are WH, SW, DPS WP and SM.

This thread makes me sad.
This thread is not meant to be for ST classes. Although I must give someone right who said that "players should reroll when playing AoE WL, AoE WH and AoE SW". They should, because you don't play these classes on AoE.

I am pretty sure, the lists would be different if AoE dmg was reduced to 85% of the dmg it does now :D

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#64 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:52 am

Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:44 am
Mystry wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:44 am
My favorite classes are WH, SW, DPS WP and SM.

This thread makes me sad.
This thread is not meant to be for ST classes. Although I must give someone right who said that "players should reroll when playing AoE WL, AoE WH and AoE SW". They should, because you don't play these classes on AoE.

I am pretty sure, the lists would be different if AoE dmg was reduced to 85% of the dmg it does now :D
I really don't know about the WL, but WH doesn't have AoE attacks. There's a WB build though. Not very effective, but based around deploying your blessed bullets to as many people as you can, debuffing them, and parrying AoEs in the process. I would class them in low but not in reroll WB utility. There are better debuffers and there are better dd for WBs, but they're an alternative if you really don't have any at your disposal. Let's call it a last resort, being very generous with the classification. It just takes a very special mindset to play WHs like this, and not many people that like the WH play style will agree to this. As always, if the build exists and someone is good at it, that's an A+, forcibly chocking it down people's throats will result in D- for every build in the game.

AoE SW is ranged, and like so is not very good at all. A-SW is the only real build, the other two masteries underperforming a lot in damage. It's weird, but true that both SW and SH only have viable mele trees.
Spoiler:

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Lithenir
Posts: 139

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#65 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:15 pm

Ototo wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:52 am
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:44 am
Mystry wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:44 am
My favorite classes are WH, SW, DPS WP and SM.

This thread makes me sad.
This thread is not meant to be for ST classes. Although I must give someone right who said that "players should reroll when playing AoE WL, AoE WH and AoE SW". They should, because you don't play these classes on AoE.

I am pretty sure, the lists would be different if AoE dmg was reduced to 85% of the dmg it does now :D
I really don't know about the WL, but WH doesn't have AoE attacks. There's a WB build though. Not very effective, but based around deploying your blessed bullets to as many people as you can, debuffing them, and parrying AoEs in the process. I would class them in low but not in reroll WB utility. There are better debuffers and there are better dd for WBs, but they're an alternative if you really don't have any at your disposal. Let's call it a last resort, being very generous with the classification. It just takes a very special mindset to play WHs like this, and not many people that like the WH play style will agree to this. As always, if the build exists and someone is good at it, that's an A+, forcibly chocking it down people's throats will result in D- for every build in the game.

AoE SW is ranged, and like so is not very good at all. A-SW is the only real build, the other two masteries underperforming a lot in damage. It's weird, but true that both SW and SH only have viable mele trees.
I think WH might be viable because if I am right they have an AoE finisher speccable and the morale drain and gain. Could have an impact, but I don't play WBs so I don't know much. For WL he has one core AoE ability and one speccable. I think that's it. Never thought much about AoE speccing in 10 years of WAR ^^

What I really am curious about is why everyone just plays their WBs on AoE and never really thought about a good old meleetrain

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toffikx
Posts: 256

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#66 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:19 pm

Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:44 am
This thread is not meant to be for ST classes.
It was meant to provide a tier list for classes both in warband and group play. It just got derailed into oblivion.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#67 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:49 pm

Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:15 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:52 am
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:44 am


This thread is not meant to be for ST classes. Although I must give someone right who said that "players should reroll when playing AoE WL, AoE WH and AoE SW". They should, because you don't play these classes on AoE.

I am pretty sure, the lists would be different if AoE dmg was reduced to 85% of the dmg it does now :D
I really don't know about the WL, but WH doesn't have AoE attacks. There's a WB build though. Not very effective, but based around deploying your blessed bullets to as many people as you can, debuffing them, and parrying AoEs in the process. I would class them in low but not in reroll WB utility. There are better debuffers and there are better dd for WBs, but they're an alternative if you really don't have any at your disposal. Let's call it a last resort, being very generous with the classification. It just takes a very special mindset to play WHs like this, and not many people that like the WH play style will agree to this. As always, if the build exists and someone is good at it, that's an A+, forcibly chocking it down people's throats will result in D- for every build in the game.

AoE SW is ranged, and like so is not very good at all. A-SW is the only real build, the other two masteries underperforming a lot in damage. It's weird, but true that both SW and SH only have viable mele trees.
I think WH might be viable because if I am right they have an AoE finisher speccable and the morale drain and gain. Could have an impact, but I don't play WBs so I don't know much. For WL he has one core AoE ability and one speccable. I think that's it. Never thought much about AoE speccing in 10 years of WAR ^^

What I really am curious about is why everyone just plays their WBs on AoE and never really thought about a good old meleetrain
Viable, yes. Suggested, no. Let's call it a last resort and don't enter too much more into it. You are probably better with any other choice except ranged SW.

You may have probably not much experience in this type of fight, but is saturation what wins big fights. You pretty much saturate an area with damage until some enemy dies, and so goes on for an attrition fight. Mele trains just don't work if you have semi-competent healers, mDPSs and tanks. They will crash in the front line and deal no damage to the actual DPSs killing them in the 2nd line. You just need to adjust your lines some steps behind if someone manages to cross it.
Spoiler:

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Lithenir
Posts: 139

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#68 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:02 pm

Ototo wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:49 pm
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:15 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:52 am


I really don't know about the WL, but WH doesn't have AoE attacks. There's a WB build though. Not very effective, but based around deploying your blessed bullets to as many people as you can, debuffing them, and parrying AoEs in the process. I would class them in low but not in reroll WB utility. There are better debuffers and there are better dd for WBs, but they're an alternative if you really don't have any at your disposal. Let's call it a last resort, being very generous with the classification. It just takes a very special mindset to play WHs like this, and not many people that like the WH play style will agree to this. As always, if the build exists and someone is good at it, that's an A+, forcibly chocking it down people's throats will result in D- for every build in the game.

AoE SW is ranged, and like so is not very good at all. A-SW is the only real build, the other two masteries underperforming a lot in damage. It's weird, but true that both SW and SH only have viable mele trees.
I think WH might be viable because if I am right they have an AoE finisher speccable and the morale drain and gain. Could have an impact, but I don't play WBs so I don't know much. For WL he has one core AoE ability and one speccable. I think that's it. Never thought much about AoE speccing in 10 years of WAR ^^

What I really am curious about is why everyone just plays their WBs on AoE and never really thought about a good old meleetrain
Viable, yes. Suggested, no. Let's call it a last resort and don't enter too much more into it. You are probably better with any other choice except ranged SW.

You may have probably not much experience in this type of fight, but is saturation what wins big fights. You pretty much saturate an area with damage until some enemy dies, and so goes on for an attrition fight. Mele trains just don't work if you have semi-competent healers, mDPSs and tanks. They will crash in the front line and deal no damage to the actual DPSs killing them in the 2nd line. You just need to adjust your lines some steps behind if someone manages to cross it.
Well I give you that, mDPS need to rush to the 2nd or healer line in a hurry. Sadly you often see mDPS attacking tanks instead of weak targets. You also need one or two assist leaders for a meleetrain. And ofc competent tanks knowing how to guard and who to CC. It's a more difficult way.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#69 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:33 pm

Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:02 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:49 pm
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:15 pm


I think WH might be viable because if I am right they have an AoE finisher speccable and the morale drain and gain. Could have an impact, but I don't play WBs so I don't know much. For WL he has one core AoE ability and one speccable. I think that's it. Never thought much about AoE speccing in 10 years of WAR ^^

What I really am curious about is why everyone just plays their WBs on AoE and never really thought about a good old meleetrain
Viable, yes. Suggested, no. Let's call it a last resort and don't enter too much more into it. You are probably better with any other choice except ranged SW.

You may have probably not much experience in this type of fight, but is saturation what wins big fights. You pretty much saturate an area with damage until some enemy dies, and so goes on for an attrition fight. Mele trains just don't work if you have semi-competent healers, mDPSs and tanks. They will crash in the front line and deal no damage to the actual DPSs killing them in the 2nd line. You just need to adjust your lines some steps behind if someone manages to cross it.
Well I give you that, mDPS need to rush to the 2nd or healer line in a hurry. Sadly you often see mDPS attacking tanks instead of weak targets. You also need one or two assist leaders for a meleetrain. And ofc competent tanks knowing how to guard and who to CC. It's a more difficult way.
It's not their fault neither they are stupid. They simply can't cross a decent tank wall, and in the remote situation that they are able to, they will overexpose their own tanks or their 2nd line to the enemy DPSs. That's why you never run in WB without some kind of rDPS support. The situation you picture is unreal, unless that you go all out and have 0-1 rDPSs, in which case you are deemed to roam without a real chance to assault choke points, only to defend them. Main job of mDPSs is not to rush to death, is to keep the pressure and focus in the line, while the 2nd line pick targets and saturate.

Mele trains only work if: The enemy stand to fight instead of fall back or in general use some kind of mobility, the fight happens in open field but not too wide favoring arrow strategies (Dragonwake road is a good example), and in chocke points where you can maximize the DPS/area relation but that lack a defensive position (all but empire bridges). They are barely able to keep up with mobile WBs, and will get split and tear apart very fast.

From this last post I come to thinkl that you are mostly, if not only, an scenario player. There mele trains can work if: Enemy tanks are clueless and/or not coordinated, your team is only comprised of high burst mDPSs, and the enemy team has only rDPSs. If the situation shows up, you can, but with just a decent tank coordination and healing, mDPSs will not cross the line, except for WLs/mSHs. But as simple as having only low burst mDPSs in your team (Maras, off Tanks, etc...) and you will fail. It's not about their intrinsic utility, is that for mele trains to work you need to burn down things while not loosing a single teammate and utility skills, or any skill but smashing a single button, are pointless.
Spoiler:

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1794

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#70 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:24 pm

Melee classes suffer from having inferior dmg to BW/Sorc on both sides.

Let's assume a simple divide into 3 generic fight situations;

1. Open field, ranged battle phase

2. Open field, close range clash

3. Funnel fight

Sorc and BW will be the first best pick for dps slot in all 3 different situations. Best dmg from range, best dmg at close range.

In situation 1), melee do mostly throw axes to get into combat or stand in some enemy dmg to get into combat and start building morale. The ranged classes start harassing enemies, from 60-100ft range. Here is where Sorc, BW, Magus, Engi start bullying whatever they can reach. Classes trying to "look busy" would be most melee, apart from Mara or WL who would somehow try to get in a pull to happen.

In situation 2), tanks and melee rush in, followed by the guarded dps and healers either stay at sides or try to hide in a ball depending on circumstances and direction of warband advance. Except this part is also where the Sorc/BW have the highest dmg potential output, where their close range spells Anni/DC, SE/SP etc start hurting enemies. Flamebreath, FBB, Backdraft - IS/IW/SK also do fine dmg at close range as well from long range. 2nd highest dps output here can be reached by Slayers and Choppas assuming they survive the clash and go Berserk, where they are more squishy than Sorc/BW while also being almost close to them in potential dps output. (9 target LS/Flurry is lagging behind the other classes' 24 target cap) Mara also shines here, as does dpsZealot. WL could do almost same dmg as Mara, just without all the possible utility available to Mara. Engi/Magus do decent AoE pressure, their pets just melt in 1-2 hits if touched by enemy. Melee Squig does some ok pressure until most of its AoE is on cooldowns. Then you start dropping morales eventually - Order lacking the drains, it's mostly Destro dropping them assuming there are 1-2 maras in the fights. M2 bombdrop classes; BW Sorc Mara (WL if somehow in warband).

Funnel fight is where the melee spam their 1-2 buttons at the side of the door, or form a pile of corpses outside. Here any rdps class with some AoE available can "make it rain" when it comes to purple numbers and medal drops, as there will usually be lot of people to be funnel farmed - kills going to highest dps funnelers (Sorc, Magus, Chop, Mara, BW, Engi, Slayer). Rdps take the active role in pressuring from distance, through the doorgap or from/to walls, while mdps wish they had logged to a rdps earlier.


Taking into account all above, it should be maybe more clear to some people here, why you stack Sorc/BW up to 5-7 spots in WB, and then only allowed limited amount of utility/melee classes. Obviously any class with AoE can get kills, no one doubts that.
But some classes suffer from more handicaps than others, and remain nigh useless in some fight situations/conditions. Apart from Mara + Slayer, rest of melee suffer from inferior utility. And apart from SL/Chop, most melee lag too much behind the dps potential of Sorc/BW.
Can you stack WHs and bring forth the mighty Dragon Gun, sure you can. But with each non-BW in an Order warband, your chance of victory vs Destruction warbands starts to suffer.

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