WE/WH Balance Proposals (looking for feedback before submission)

[jokerspsycho]

Having something similiar to the BG detaunt dispell would have been awesome. Would make them more apt to killing healers instead of "lol detaunt" and u do no damage now.

This would be really great in combination with 75% heal debuff stacking.
Oh wait, that would be totally overpowered.
It would influence not only warband play but small scale as well and overall not for the better.

You always come in with complaints and never offer anything constructive. Try giving it a go.

That includes if a we/wh gets the drop on you chances are you will die if you don't get help run through some pots, or if your a healer concentrate your heals on saving your own ass.

Having something similiar to the BG detaunt dispell would have been awesome. Would make them more apt to killing healers instead of "lol detaunt" and u do no damage now.

Also thought it was odd we/wh didnt have an execute, being an assassin n all.

Agree. WH/WE need an execute imo and get the assassin style back ! Maybe a passive bonus %dmg after opening or immune CC for x sec. Dunno.

Personally dont think we need CC immunity, having the elixirs (if they didnt share a CD they would be awesome) is nice to pop when u expect cc and leaves counter play. I know WE has 15% increased damage on openers. I think, for WE, making sac stab similiae to sh and sw execute would be nice. "Does X amount of damage, if target is under 50% deals X x 2" Make it deal less than Puncture, about 15% so it isnt your replacement, but when target is under 50% you can hit it and do some big damage. Maybe if we got a detaunt dispell make it work only once every 10s so your dps could detaunt around their healer to pop it then they could use theirs. I'm not against being able to play around it, but just something to make the class more like an assassin and less just another Mdps that has stealth.

The goal obv isnt to make the class stupid strong all around, but with detaunts, cc immunities, etc, the assassin class has a hard time shining. Cant open > stun > silence a healer and get them super low in opener. Now it's open > stun > detaunted.

[sighy]

after all most other games offer the "assassin" nishe

I think a big issue is most people dont see that we/wh is an assassin. They do their job about as well as a WL with more effort. Cant make them to strong but currently they are more glass than cannon.

Reason is simple, at this point. WH/WE were really strong way back when, in terms of single target, but through many changes to gear, abilities and inner workings of stats we lost that. And you can't exactly be an assassin when you can't burst key targets down or even stick to them, if they play well. WL always has tons of cc, pounce and very respectable AoE, on top of good single target damage, if played well. ASW is a bigger ST threat than a WH/WE and faces very comparable issues.

Frankly the 9 target cap on broad severring/wh mirror would work well as a hold over, until a more in depth solution could be worked out/implemented. Nobody is asking for WE/WH to be on par with slayers or whatever, but to be a viable wb dps, in a game designed around warbands.

[jokerspsycho]

after all most other games offer the "assassin" nishe

I think a big issue is most people dont see that we/wh is an assassin. They do their job about as well as a WL with more effort. Cant make them to strong but currently they are more glass than cannon.

Reason is simple, at this point. WH/WE were really strong way back when, in terms of single target, but through many changes to gear, abilities and inner workings of stats we lost that. And you can't exactly be an assassin when you can't burst key targets down or even stick to them, if they play well. WL always has tons of cc, pounce and very respectable AoE, on top of good single target damage, if played well. ASW is a bigger ST threat than a WH/WE and faces very comparable issues.

Frankly the 9 target cap on broad severring/wh mirror would work well as a hold over, until a more in depth solution could be worked out/implemented. Nobody is asking for WE/WH to be on par with slayers or whatever, but to be a viable wb dps, in a game designed around warbands.

A WB tree would be fantastic. I just think they are stuck btwn "you are an assassin class you shouldnt be viable in large scale" and "lol this game isnt about 1v1s so you wont get buffs to help you in 1v1" that people echo a lot. I think a decision needs to be made.

Just have to keep putting ideas out until the devs decide they like some and want to build off of them. I ofc dont expect any of my ideas to be implications 100%, I try and keep them balanced, but the idea is to give a dev a lightbulb about how to build off suggestions, kinda like the terror idea mentioned earlier.

[geezereur]

Why not make it so any class killed by a WH/WE can't be rezzed for 30 sec to a minute? (not the last hit, but within a few seconds of their execute going off)

You'd give them a definite purpose in WB vs WB fights with how much rezzing there is. This purpose would also be thematic from a gameplay and lore standpoint.

Overall - anyone who claims that WE/WH don't need buffs needs to get out of T1 or just quit BSing.

Now that's a suggestion that isn't dripping in tears. Good job. I bet we could inflict a terror debuff on killing blow that lasts 30 seconds.

That would be sweet.

[Faef]

Problems I see:

1. Too easy for all classes to spec high defence with no loss of attacking power with rn points in crit mitigation - which WH/WE heavily rely on.

2. No defined role as people keep pointing out.

Things I would like to see:

1. Init steal bullet / kiss increased to 150-200 pnt steal (around 70 at the moment)
2. Ap steal bullet / kiss changed to terror debuff people mentioned above - if die within 10 secs you can not be rezzed for 10 secs
3. All stealth openers damage doubled
4. Stealth current set back from damaged chance reduced by 50% i.e. it should be easier than currently to re-stealth, but still difficult, it was tuned way too high last time.
5. Additional effect to detaunt ability - can be cast from stealth (un-stealths you) and staggers (break on dmg) all enemies for 4 secs within 30 feet (shares declare anathema immunity, so cant double stagger). A new stealth opener effectively, can function as normal when not cast from stealth.

The last two are to allow for WH/WE to jump a WB backline, strike and get out again (potentially) or disrupt the backline tactically. I would rather see that type of play for the class then just another addition to the AOE train.

[jokerspsycho]

5. Additional effect to detaunt ability - can be cast from stealth (un-stealths you) and staggers (break on dmg) all enemies for 4 secs within 30 feet (shares declare anathema immunity, so cant double stagger). A new stealth opener effectively, can function as normal when not cast from stealth.

While I would love to see this, because 2 WE/WHA could pop like 15y apart and have large count of disruption then jump on a healer and blow one up, would cause a lot of QQ.

[Sulorie]

Having something similiar to the BG detaunt dispell would have been awesome. Would make them more apt to killing healers instead of "lol detaunt" and u do no damage now.

This would be really great in combination with 75% heal debuff stacking.
Oh wait, that would be totally overpowered.
It would influence not only warband play but small scale as well and overall not for the better.

You always come in with complaints and never offer anything constructive. Try giving it a go.

Don't take it personal, I just tell you, why it is a bad idea and I hoped ppl in general would try to "break/exploit" their own suggestions first before posting them.

[Faef]

5. Additional effect to detaunt ability - can be cast from stealth (un-stealths you) and staggers (break on dmg) all enemies for 4 secs within 30 feet (shares declare anathema immunity, so cant double stagger). A new stealth opener effectively, can function as normal when not cast from stealth.

While I would love to see this, because 2 WE/WHA could pop like 15y apart and have large count of disruption then jump on a healer and blow one up, would cause a lot of QQ.

Thats kind of the point, it designed to counter aoe blobbing, the range could be tighted or length reduced, but given its a stagger, i think their fine.

[jokerspsycho]

This would be really great in combination with 75% heal debuff stacking.
Oh wait, that would be totally overpowered.
It would influence not only warband play but small scale as well and overall not for the better.

You always come in with complaints and never offer anything constructive. Try giving it a go.

Don't take it personal, I just tell you, why it is a bad idea and I hoped ppl in general would try to "break/exploit" their own suggestions first before posting them.

Which I addressed in the second part of the post you quoted. Which you seemed to ignore. Again try being constructive once in a while.

[Ilthay]

1. Init steal bullet / kiss increased to 150-200 pnt steal (around 70 at the moment)
2. Ap steal bullet / kiss changed to terror debuff people mentioned above - if die within 10 secs you can not be rezzed for 10 secs
3. All stealth openers damage doubled
4. Stealth current set back from damaged chance reduced by 50% i.e. it should be easier than currently to re-stealth, but still difficult, it was tuned way too high last time.
5. Additional effect to detaunt ability - can be cast from stealth (un-stealths you) and staggers (break on dmg) all enemies for 4 secs within 30 feet (shares declare anathema immunity, so cant double stagger). A new stealth opener effectively, can function as normal when not cast from stealth

1. Simple change, I like it.

2. Terror rebuff is cool, and it serves a purpose, but I don’t love it. I’d rather is increase cool down on abilities, or increase AP on all skills. Currently the treachery kiss is the only one without a lasting debut, so changing the AP related debut to a lasting cool down increase or an AP increase for all abilities would be a good change.

3. Not sure about dmg, but again that would be nice. I would combine your number with this, and just add an AoE detaunt on every opener. Easy change which gives us more protection in ORVR.

4. Love it.

5. AoE stagger from stealth is too much. Again, I would just grant all openers AoE detaunt, or create a tactic which does the same thing. This makes ORVR much more bearable, further rewards cycling in and out of combat with stealth and openers, and makes us slightly less squishy when we enter the fray.

I would also add a 6. Perhaps simply make WE/WH take less damage while in stealth, which sgain helps us in ORVR and gets us to our target through AOE.