WE/WH Balance Proposals (looking for feedback before submission)

[jokerspsycho]

Yeah, I was thinking that actually, since a wounds debuff needs to be on-demand if it's gonna be useful - builiding up accusations before it does anything meaningful might make it very cumbersome to use.

Cooldown increase might do the trick, yeah - that or the AP increase similar to Choking Fury. Or if we want to go in a completely different direction - have the tactic make Burn Heretic! spread on targets in the 30FT radius on target's death or something similar? Although that's potentially a double-edged sword (breaking roots and staggers). And yeah, armour debuff probably doesn't make sense, especially in the tree with SoD.

On the other hand, it would be handy to have some purpose in bigger fights - and that could maybe fill that need.

Could do something akin to squig vomit, hits X Targets in a Y radius and increases their CD by Z. Hitting a healer clump for a cd increase would be sweet, would have me swapping over to WH over WE at that point lol.

[Skald]

Yeah, I was thinking that actually, since a wounds debuff needs to be on-demand if it's gonna be useful - builiding up accusations before it does anything meaningful might make it very cumbersome to use.

Cooldown increase might do the trick, yeah - that or the AP increase similar to Choking Fury. Or if we want to go in a completely different direction - have the tactic make Burn Heretic! spread on targets in the 30FT radius on target's death or something similar? Although that's potentially a double-edged sword (breaking roots and staggers). And yeah, armour debuff probably doesn't make sense, especially in the tree with SoD.

On the other hand, it would be handy to have some purpose in bigger fights - and that could maybe fill that need.

Could do something akin to squig vomit, hits X Targets in a Y radius and increases their CD by Z. Hitting a healer clump for a cd increase would be sweet, would have me swapping over to WH over WE at that point lol.

That could be interesting, yes

On that note, Fervor could also use some love - as I understand it, the WE counterpart - Envenomed Blade is actually useful due to the Septic Blade tactic, right?

[jokerspsycho]

Yeah, I was thinking that actually, since a wounds debuff needs to be on-demand if it's gonna be useful - builiding up accusations before it does anything meaningful might make it very cumbersome to use.

Cooldown increase might do the trick, yeah - that or the AP increase similar to Choking Fury. Or if we want to go in a completely different direction - have the tactic make Burn Heretic! spread on targets in the 30FT radius on target's death or something similar? Although that's potentially a double-edged sword (breaking roots and staggers). And yeah, armour debuff probably doesn't make sense, especially in the tree with SoD.

On the other hand, it would be handy to have some purpose in bigger fights - and that could maybe fill that need.

Could do something akin to squig vomit, hits X Targets in a Y radius and increases their CD by Z. Hitting a healer clump for a cd increase would be sweet, would have me swapping over to WH over WE at that point lol.

That could be interesting, yes

On that note, Fervor could also use some love - as I understand it, the WE counterpart - Envenomed Blade is actually useful due to the Septic Blade tactic, right?

I dont think many people use it because it is, if I have heard correctly, multiplicative instead of additive. So if a slayer has 25% chance to crit and u hit him with the 25% reduction it takes him to 18.75ish crit. So not bad, but we needs like 6 tactic slots I feel like so not sure what I would ever take that over tbh. I run left tree so I have bleeding edge, increased pain, brute force, and I have one "free" slot which usually goes to flanking or taste of blood.

[Niightwish]

There just seems to be so many complex ideas being proposed when simple improvements like increasing stealth to 45 sec duration with a 15 secs cooldown and reducing the cast time to 1 sec. can do wonders. Why? For one it dramatically increases the amount of time WH/WE can stay in stealth and pick their fights consistent with a stealth based class mechanic. It will also make WE/WH More opportunistic in their approach to roaming in oRvR and Keep Fights.

When it comes to class changes in any game, small increments are better then complex overhauls like introducing multiple armor options etc.

What I propose can be done with minimal resources and the effect can be observed for a period of time. From there it can be rolled back easily if too powerful or additional “small” improvements can be added To supplement.

[jokerspsycho]

There just seems to be so many complex ideas being proposed when simple improvements like increasing stealth to 45 sec duration with a 15 secs cooldown and reducing the cast time to 1 sec. can do wonders. Why? For one it dramatically increases the amount of time WH/WE can stay in stealth and pick their fights consistent with a stealth based class mechanic. It will also make WE/WH More opportunistic in their approach to roaming in oRvR and Keep Fights.

When it comes to class changes in any game, small increments are better then complex overhauls like introducing multiple armor options etc.

What I propose can be done with minimal resources and the effect can be observed for a period of time. From there it can be rolled back easily if too powerful or additional “small” improvements can be added To supplement.

I would be happy with something like 30/10, 45/15 and a 1s cast. Often times I engage, get a kill, start to move and enemy is to close mount up and I have 10-15s left on my cd.

While I do think both could use a tree changed up a bit for WB, I would rather the class have more focus to help its solo roam and small scale play. Reducing the shared cd btwn vanish/armpen/disrupt so you will have to choose what is good for the engagement, but wont be out to dry, so to speak, for 60s. Would be nice in addition to a stealth change.

[sighy]

There just seems to be so many complex ideas being proposed when simple improvements like increasing stealth to 45 sec duration with a 15 secs cooldown and reducing the cast time to 1 sec. can do wonders. Why? For one it dramatically increases the amount of time WH/WE can stay in stealth and pick their fights consistent with a stealth based class mechanic. It will also make WE/WH More opportunistic in their approach to roaming in oRvR and Keep Fights.

When it comes to class changes in any game, small increments are better then complex overhauls like introducing multiple armor options etc.

What I propose can be done with minimal resources and the effect can be observed for a period of time. From there it can be rolled back easily if too powerful or additional “small” improvements can be added To supplement.

Because the issues at hand are inherently fundamental and complex, which leads to complex solutions.

Stealth is at best situational, the channel is too long, you are too easy to spot anyway due to ppl stacking the most common defensive stat outside of wounds. The ambush attacks hit like a wet noodle and outside of the ap cost reduction don't provide much in a way of real benefit. And it's entirely pointless, when you get to the point in keepcracking, where it's a fight. Even if it lasted forever, had no cd and made you invulnerable.(Not saying that should be a thing) While it might improve quality of life, in low pop sieges before the door falls that's about all of the impact i see it having.

Certainly wouldn't fix issues with output, group utility and so forth, which keep it out of proper warbands. Not by the measure that there are better classes to take, but that your class is so bad the leader would gimp the wb. You provide nothing that wouldn't be already on classes taken for other reasons.(more of a WE perspective since WH has monopoly on morale drain on order)

[teiloh]

wrt SoD vs BB - I believe SoD flatout ignores 50% of the target's armor.

BB increases your armor pen by 50%.

So vs a target with 75% mitigation, SOD will just drop it to 37.5%.

If you had 30% armor pen, BB would increase that to 30*1.5 = 45%.

[Jazlizard]

So I played a WE on live and also play a WE here.

I can't comment on the WH proposals, as I don't have much experience there (other than fighting against them!), but I don't think adding range to everything is appropriate for a mdps class. I realize WHs have guns and so will have some exceptions - but that is just me.

For me when I choose to play a class like the WE, I expect to be a glass cannon, assassin type role. I accept that I may be limited in a warband type setting compared to other classes, with the trade off being the king in single target melee scenarios.

That being said, right now it feels like we have all of the glass, but not nearly enough of the cannon. I've seen arguments about why we shouldn't be able to kill healers in 1v1 situations and that simply causing them to focus on themselves is enough and I strongly disagree. To me if I find an unguarded or otherwise unsupported healer and open up on them from stealth, they should die. This to me is our ideal situation and if we can't win there, then might as well play something else.

If you are a squishy class without a guard and I manage to get to you in stealth you should die if your team can't kill me first or otherwise disable me somehow. I accept that I may die for my kill, that's the trade off. We have a few limited escape tools, and if I'm skilled enough or if my healer(s) can keep me up past the kill, or a tank guard me then awesome.

I'm not sure if it's simply our damage is too low, healing is too good and gear stats are out of whack, but something isn't right.

I do agree that changing stealth to last longer and having a shorter cast type would at least help with getting into ideal situations more often and slightly help suitability. I'd probably start with 45 seconds and see how that plays out.

For your WE suggestions:

• Dance of Doom - I agree isn't good and needs love

• Frenzies - I don't care if these have ranged or not, but the trade off needs to be there if the mirror does have range

• Pierce Armor - I could go either way on this. Thematically it should just ignore / reduce a % of armor

• Sharpened edge - I would try removing the cap of every 2 seconds and see what happens. Turns this into a anti parry - block build, which is interesting.

• Enveloping Shadow - I honestly haven't played with this one much. A poison effect out of stealth seems more thematic to the tree, but I also dig the survivability angle, just not sure it's strong enough.

[jokerspsycho]

For your WE suggestions:

• Dance of Doom - I agree isn't good and needs love

• Frenzies - I don't care if these have ranged or not, but the trade off needs to be there if the mirror does have range

• Pierce Armor - I could go either way on this. Thematically it should just ignore / reduce a % of armor

• Sharpened edge - I would try removing the cap of every 2 seconds and see what happens. Turns this into a anti parry - block build, which is interesting.

• Enveloping Shadow - I honestly haven't played with this one much. A poison effect out of stealth seems more thematic to the tree, but I also dig the survivability angle, just not sure it's strong enough.

Mirrors arent direct. Ra could be ranged easily but skills that are melee skillsshouldnt be ranged. Bal needs to be 30ft, why my ranged finisher is 5ft I dont understand I guess cause it has a positional requirement?

Pa ignores 100% armor and gives you a ws buff for more armpen

[teiloh]

So I played a WE on live and also play a WE here.

I can't comment on the WH proposals, as I don't have much experience there (other than fighting against them!), but I don't think adding range to everything is appropriate for a mdps class. I realize WHs have guns and so will have some exceptions - but that is just me.

For me when I choose to play a class like the WE, I expect to be a glass cannon, assassin type role. I accept that I may be limited in a warband type setting compared to other classes, with the trade off being the king in single target melee scenarios.

That being said, right now it feels like we have all of the glass, but not nearly enough of the cannon. I've seen arguments about why we shouldn't be able to kill healers in 1v1 situations and that simply causing them to focus on themselves is enough and I strongly disagree. To me if I find an unguarded or otherwise unsupported healer and open up on them from stealth, they should die. This to me is our ideal situation and if we can't win there, then might as well play something else.

If you are a squishy class without a guard and I manage to get to you in stealth you should die if your team can't kill me first or otherwise disable me somehow. I accept that I may die for my kill, that's the trade off. We have a few limited escape tools, and if I'm skilled enough or if my healer(s) can keep me up past the kill, or a tank guard me then awesome.

I'm not sure if it's simply our damage is too low, healing is too good and gear stats are out of whack, but something isn't right.

I do agree that changing stealth to last longer and having a shorter cast type would at least help with getting into ideal situations more often and slightly help suitability. I'd probably start with 45 seconds and see how that plays out.

For your WE suggestions:

• Dance of Doom - I agree isn't good and needs love

• Frenzies - I don't care if these have ranged or not, but the trade off needs to be there if the mirror does have range

• Pierce Armor - I could go either way on this. Thematically it should just ignore / reduce a % of armor

• Sharpened edge - I would try removing the cap of every 2 seconds and see what happens. Turns this into a anti parry - block build, which is interesting.

• Enveloping Shadow - I honestly haven't played with this one much. A poison effect out of stealth seems more thematic to the tree, but I also dig the survivability angle, just not sure it's strong enough.

I didn't realize there was an ICD on Kisses. IMO, this should be removed to compensate for the loss of range as that was always the trade-off. I don't think the blanket changes to procs/reflects were really necessary - they should each be evaluated and tweaked to specific goal DPS, without too many arbitrary rules governing how we get there.