Remove LOS from scenario/BO flags

[Amdus]

A truly heroic effort to turn “weird LOS quirk” into a PUG vs premade argument. Absolutely incredible.

'Weird LoS quirk' - tell me, how often did you try to cast that spell on your flagpole humping target before the meleetrain got to you?
This isn't about flagpoles and LoS, but rather about the consequences of tunnelvision and lack of coordination on a fundamental level.

Please, papercraft a single scenario in which the flagpole LoS makes or breaks the game and cannot be dealt with by either swapping targets or simply coordinating with the other players in the scenario?
Let me spell it out: you don't have to play in a premade to not be a <pug>. The very moment you join a scenario you do in fact join a (scenario) group. That's usually between one and eleven, sometimes even up to twenty-three other people you can coordinate with; e.g.: tanks that can punt your target away from the evil flagpole, mdps that can train your target behind the evil flagpole, ...

Edit: Doesn't it raise questions, that the flagpole LoS survived for the past 5yrs? Strange isn't it, that no one before took any meaningful issue with it.

Okay, all these situations are from a Havoc Magus experience :

Gates of Ekrund scenario :
You're standing with your pet on one of the stone dwarf statue's head near middle flag
You clear up second floor, no one left there to kill, no one at flag floor coming up to it, only melees fighting around the flag
You start your rotation with 2-3s cast skills, enemy (ofc it's natural movement in melee so it's not done on purpose) just passes behind the 5px flagpole, your cast is broken
And again, and again
-> You're just standing there useless waiting for another target to come in range instead of assisting your teammates

Reikland Hills scenario :
You guard solo one of the exterior flags while main forces fight for the middle/other side flag, standing uphill or on the exit of the one-way ramp leading to the flag with your pet
A dude comes over to retake the flag, 1 proper rotation: he's a goner (element of surprise, tactic, etc.)
He comes back to the same flag, knows you're around, spots you (or not) and just stands there recapping while strafing left & right so you don't ever get to cast any 1s+ skill on him
-> you have to go hug him like an idiot and expose yourself, he still strafes around the flagpole while keeping you behind it (eventhough you're at like 10ft from him) until his mates come over and bash your skull in

Maw of Madness Ranked scenario :
Being a Havoc Magus in ranked is already not easy, but when you try to take advantage of that tiny window of freedom you get without getting pressured like hell to get a rotation off and the target starts strafing to break LoS with the flag and your cast keeps breaking (or again, natural melee movement around the flag, considered it's right in the middle of the fighting ground), even critical ones like a Disarm or a punt, yeah awesome

And I could gather several other instances.

In RvR, I agree that it's almost a non-issue considering you're seldom alone
But (way?) more than a half of players joining Scenarios are not in premades, and in a PuG environment where sometimes (or should I say rather often) people have trouble switching groups to not have 2 retarded groups with 3 heals in 1 and 3 tanks in another and none in the other one, or use their guard, or give you the right Zealot Mark (at least, not one that's not stacking with your main stat potion...), assist on a target, etc. you want people to magically coordinate at a telepathic level to go wreck that dude that's breaking your LoS with the flagpole ?..
And in a Ranked 6v6 environment, considering how tight the match-ups/fights sometimes are, it actually can "make or break the game" because if you need to apply pressure to that one target at that precise moment, you just can't randomly swap to another because the flagpole is in your way, it makes no sense


As for :

What makes no sense at all is that projectiles go through terrain irregularities, rocks and in some cases walls but OP is complaining about a max of 5 poles per scenario.

Nice one mate, it's basically like someone saying to a mayor:
"There are potholes on that road, would it be possible to look into it and eventually fix them ?"
and the mayor replying:
"Yeah, well there are even bigger ones further up on that road so deal with those."

Eventhough, I agree with what you said, it's just funny, as if this issue did not concern both sides equally anyway.


I also think that LoS breaking has always been, is and should be a tactical move, it's just that IMO, there's a huge difference between a wooden plank, a tree or a stone wall and a 4cm flagpole that breaks not only physical range casts with arrows (which would be arguably coherent) but also magical ones

Anyway, it probably won't even be looked into considering how minor of a change it is compared to the amount of time it would take to do it (as Martok said), it's just that I don't get why people are trying to act like it is non-existant.

If poles are bugged or not intended to perform that way sure a fix is required, but you can suggest, ask or report the bugs concerning all path finding/LoS issues, not only the ones that could potentially benefit you as a ranged, while ignoring other major ones just because you are taking advantage of them.

I don't know why are you assuming that I'm siding with any faction when I'm not. I just find hypocritical that you mention that you can't hit people through a pole, while you don't mention that you can hit people through walls, terrain, obstacles and that you can send your pets to climb walls and kill people/cauldron completely ignoring the laws of physics and path finding. Why isn't that being mentioned? Obviously because it's an exploit that benefits you as a caster. Mention both, say that path finding doesn't work properly and then you're being honest. But if only the poles bother you while you take advantage of all the other bugs concerning path finding, don't complain when you get called out. I Never mentioned anything about factions, never used any analogy, never went off-topic, so I have no idea why you brought that up.

As somebody pointed out, if you can find a reliable source that this is indeed a bug, you can open a bug tracker topic too. Concerning the LoS, I saw a bugtracker thread made in 2016 where somebody reported the issue on heals going through walls. The thread got closed because the OP didn't provide the further proof he was asked for, and from what you can understand from that post he was referring specifically about group heals going through walls, which in that case it is intended to be that way. Though it is not supposed to be that way with direct spells. How is that not something truly game breaking? A healer/caster, putting itself under the bridge/cliff in nordenwatch and casting spells on top of people that he can't see? The caster/healer is not complaining about that right? but when the person gets behind the pole, he alt-tabs immediately to report that the evil pole is not letting him exploit the LoS anymore, that's my point, and that's why I think this thread altogether is pure hypocrisy.

[Vayra]

If poles are bugged or not intended to perform that way sure a fix is required, but you can suggest, ask or report the bugs concerning all path finding/LoS issues, not only the ones that could potentially benefit you as a ranged, while ignoring other major ones just because you are taking advantage of them.

I don't know why are you assuming that I'm siding with any faction when I'm not. I just find hypocritical that you mention that you can't hit people through a pole, while you don't mention that you can hit people through walls, terrain, obstacles and that you can send your pets to climb walls and kill people/cauldron completely ignoring the laws of physics and path finding. Why isn't that being mentioned? Obviously because it's an exploit that benefits you as a caster. Mention both, say that path finding doesn't work properly and then you're being honest. But if only the poles bother you while you take advantage of all the other bugs concerning path finding, don't complain when you get called out. I Never mentioned anything about factions, never used any analogy, never went off-topic, so I have no idea why you brought that up.

As somebody pointed out, if you can find a reliable source that this is indeed a bug, you can open a bug tracker topic too. Concerning the LoS, I saw a bugtracker thread made in 2016 where somebody reported the issue on heals going through walls. The thread got closed because the OP didn't provide the further proof he was asked for, and from what you can understand from that post he was referring specifically about group heals going through walls, which in that case it is intended to be that way. Though it is not supposed to be that way with direct spells. How is that not something truly game breaking? A healer/caster, putting itself under the bridge/cliff in nordenwatch and casting spells on top of people that he can't see? The caster/healer is not complaining about that right? but when the person gets behind the pole, he alt-tabs immediately to report that the evil pole is not letting him exploit the LoS anymore, that's my point, and that's why I think this thread altogether is pure hypocrisy.

All you're trying to do here is derail the discussion into other topics. I didn't mention any other topics because they're not relevant to this discussion. If you want to discuss them make a thread here, or gather some proof and make a bug report on it. I'll be happy to explain to you the game mechanics of why certain things happen if you do. What I'm doing here is making a change request (not a bug report since this could be considered intended) for a feature that is nonsensical. If you're still clearly visible to your attacker, you should be in LoS. Anything else is off-topic and please take it to a more appropriate thread.

[Amdus]

If poles are bugged or not intended to perform that way sure a fix is required, but you can suggest, ask or report the bugs concerning all path finding/LoS issues, not only the ones that could potentially benefit you as a ranged, while ignoring other major ones just because you are taking advantage of them.

I don't know why are you assuming that I'm siding with any faction when I'm not. I just find hypocritical that you mention that you can't hit people through a pole, while you don't mention that you can hit people through walls, terrain, obstacles and that you can send your pets to climb walls and kill people/cauldron completely ignoring the laws of physics and path finding. Why isn't that being mentioned? Obviously because it's an exploit that benefits you as a caster. Mention both, say that path finding doesn't work properly and then you're being honest. But if only the poles bother you while you take advantage of all the other bugs concerning path finding, don't complain when you get called out. I Never mentioned anything about factions, never used any analogy, never went off-topic, so I have no idea why you brought that up.

As somebody pointed out, if you can find a reliable source that this is indeed a bug, you can open a bug tracker topic too. Concerning the LoS, I saw a bugtracker thread made in 2016 where somebody reported the issue on heals going through walls. The thread got closed because the OP didn't provide the further proof he was asked for, and from what you can understand from that post he was referring specifically about group heals going through walls, which in that case it is intended to be that way. Though it is not supposed to be that way with direct spells. How is that not something truly game breaking? A healer/caster, putting itself under the bridge/cliff in nordenwatch and casting spells on top of people that he can't see? The caster/healer is not complaining about that right? but when the person gets behind the pole, he alt-tabs immediately to report that the evil pole is not letting him exploit the LoS anymore, that's my point, and that's why I think this thread altogether is pure hypocrisy.

All you're trying to do here is derail the discussion into other topics. I didn't mention any other topics because they're not relevant to this discussion. If you want to discuss them make a thread here, or gather some proof and make a bug report on it. I'll be happy to explain to you the game mechanics of why certain things happen if you do. What I'm doing here is making a change request (not a bug report since this could be considered intended) for a feature that is nonsensical. If you're still clearly visible to your attacker, you should be in LoS. Anything else is off-topic and please take it to a more appropriate thread.

I'm not derailing anything, I pointed out clearly that your claim is completely biased because it benefits you as a caster, and is a suggestion that benefits exclusively casters, a suggestion that god forbid the redundancy comes from a caster. You don't need to explain to me any game mechanics and you don't need to be condescend either. What is "non-sensical" to you makes a lot of sense to anyone that's not a caster and sometimes to a caster too if they are using the LoS to protect themselves from another caster. If a BW is casting fireworks on you, and you go hide behind the pole you're happy about the pole being there, but if you are tunneling a Slayer and he hides behind the pole, then the pole is evil and LoS needs to be reworked so you can keep tunneling him regardless of an obstacle.

[Vayra]

What is "non-sensical" to you makes a lot of sense to anyone that's not a caster and sometimes to a caster too if they are using the LoS to protect themselves from another caster. If a BW is casting fireworks on you, and you go hide behind the pole you're happy about the pole being there, but if you are tunneling a Slayer and he hides behind the pole, then the pole is evil and LoS needs to be reworked so you can keep tunneling him regardless of an obstacle.

What could possibly make sense about a pole that is in no way hiding your location breaking LoS and cancelling a spell? If it was a pillar that fully blocked him from view I'd have no issue. If I can't see him the spell should cancel, that's fine. But if I can still clearly see him it makes absolutely no sense that he is out of LoS and my spell should not be broken.

And you seem to be pretty hung up on me being a caster (I assume because my Sorc is at the top of my signature), I play tank and healer far more, which would benefit from the status quo as with them I can dance around the flag to be safe from BWs and Engies. However I never intentionally do this because it makes no sense to me that the flag should cancel a cast when I'm clearly still in sight of the caster. My choice of class has no bearing on this. Flags blocking LoS is just stupid, they don't obstruct view in any meaningful way, they are placed smack dab in the middle of important areas of the map, and allow people to both abuse casting mechanics to avoid damage and it's geometry to avoid being punted away from the flag.

[Amdus]

What is "non-sensical" to you makes a lot of sense to anyone that's not a caster and sometimes to a caster too if they are using the LoS to protect themselves from another caster. If a BW is casting fireworks on you, and you go hide behind the pole you're happy about the pole being there, but if you are tunneling a Slayer and he hides behind the pole, then the pole is evil and LoS needs to be reworked so you can keep tunneling him regardless of an obstacle.

What could possibly make sense about a pole that is in no way hiding your location breaking LoS and cancelling a spell? If it was a pillar that fully blocked him from view I'd have no issue. If I can't see him the spell should cancel, that's fine. But if I can still clearly see him it makes absolutely no sense that he is out of LoS and my spell should not be broken.

And you seem to be pretty hung up on me being a caster (I assume because my Sorc is at the top of my signature), I play tank and healer far more, which would benefit from the status quo as with them I can dance around the flag to be safe from BWs and Engies. However I never intentionally do this because it makes no sense to me that the flag should cancel a cast when I'm clearly still in sight of the caster. My choice of class has no bearing on this. Flags blocking LoS is just stupid, they don't obstruct view in any meaningful way, they are placed smack dab in the middle of important areas of the map, and allow people to both abuse casting mechanics to avoid damage and it's geometry to avoid being punted away from the flag.

So you openly admit that you never use the flags at your advantage because according to your logic, it's stupid. And now you want everyone to acknowledge that this is stupid because you believe it's stupid, therefore it should be the way you want because that's the only way that it's not stupid, and everyone else that uses the terrain obstacles at his advantage to outplay you are stupid, and they should just stay in place so casters can melt him down, otherwise they are stupid because a flag pole, a tiny tree trunk or a box that only covers the body partially shouldn't count as a LoS obstacle because otherwise they are stupid because you say that they don't count as LoS obstacles in a meaningful way.

I have never played any MMO with flags where these don't count as LoS Obstacles, it's been like that in all the MMO's just as trees, tall fences and boxes. A fence that goes more than half the body counts as a LoS obstacle, even though there's literally a hole where you can see the entire body of the player it still counts as a LoS obstacle, why a flag pole despite being vertical should be any different?

The "status quo" you talk about is called game design, and this game just as many others was designed this way for a reason, it was designed this way so ensnared players, tanks, healers and other people in need can use the terrain and objects at their advantage to survive longer, reverse a situation or wait for reinforcements.

Edit: And I am not done yet, I have yet to start with the: "Additionally, please only check LoS at beginning and end of cast, a split second of losing LoS should not cancel a spell entirely."

"Additionally" You seem to be one of these people that think that GM's and devs are here to serve you, to shape the game in a specific way to accommodate your needs, and if they don't do it, you throw a tantrum on the forums like you have been doing so far. Then you get confronted by someone else while having a civil discussion, but as soon as things that you don't want to hear get mentioned you go with the excuses: "You're derailing the subject.", "Leave this thread and make one of your own.". At the end of the day, the sarcasm of the guy that made the "pug issue" post was the most reasonable of all. "Additionally" lol. As if they had to follow your orders.

[EsthelielSunfury]

What is "non-sensical" to you makes a lot of sense to anyone that's not a caster and sometimes to a caster too if they are using the LoS to protect themselves from another caster. If a BW is casting fireworks on you, and you go hide behind the pole you're happy about the pole being there, but if you are tunneling a Slayer and he hides behind the pole, then the pole is evil and LoS needs to be reworked so you can keep tunneling him regardless of an obstacle.

What could possibly make sense about a pole that is in no way hiding your location breaking LoS and cancelling a spell? If it was a pillar that fully blocked him from view I'd have no issue. If I can't see him the spell should cancel, that's fine. But if I can still clearly see him it makes absolutely no sense that he is out of LoS and my spell should not be broken.

And you seem to be pretty hung up on me being a caster (I assume because my Sorc is at the top of my signature), I play tank and healer far more, which would benefit from the status quo as with them I can dance around the flag to be safe from BWs and Engies. However I never intentionally do this because it makes no sense to me that the flag should cancel a cast when I'm clearly still in sight of the caster. My choice of class has no bearing on this. Flags blocking LoS is just stupid, they don't obstruct view in any meaningful way, they are placed smack dab in the middle of important areas of the map, and allow people to both abuse casting mechanics to avoid damage and it's geometry to avoid being punted away from the flag.

So you openly admit that you never use the flags at your advantage because according to your logic, it's stupid. And now you want everyone to acknowledge that this is stupid because you believe it's stupid, therefore it should be the way you want because that's the only way that it's not stupid, and everyone else that uses the terrain obstacles at his advantage to outplay you are stupid, and they should just stay in place so casters can melt him down, otherwise they are stupid because a flag pole, a tiny tree trunk or a box that only covers the body partially shouldn't count as a LoS obstacle because otherwise they are stupid because you say that they don't count as LoS obstacles in a meaningful way.

I have never played any MMO with flags where these don't count as LoS Obstacles, it's been like that in all the MMO's just as trees, tall fences and boxes. A fence that goes more than half the body counts as a LoS obstacle, even though there's literally a hole where you can see the entire body of the player it still counts as a LoS obstacle, why a flag pole despite being vertical should be any different?

The "status quo" you talk about is called game design, and this game just as many others was designed this way for a reason, it was designed this way so ensnared players, tanks, healers and other people in need can use the terrain and objects at their advantage to survive longer, reverse a situation or wait for reinforcements.

Edit: And I am not done yet, I have yet to start with the: "Additionally, please only check LoS at beginning and end of cast, a split second of losing LoS should not cancel a spell entirely."

"Additionally" You seem to be one of these people that think that GM's and devs are here to serve you, to shape the game in a specific way to accommodate your needs, and if they don't do it, you throw a tantrum on the forums like you have been doing so far. Then you get confronted by someone else while having a civil discussion, but as soon as things that you don't want to hear get mentioned you go with the excuses: "You're derailing the subject.", "Leave this thread and make one of your own.". At the end of the day, the sarcasm of the guy that made the "pug issue" post was the most reasonable of all. "Additionally" lol. As if they had to follow your orders.

No that wasn't reasonable at all from him and it derailed the post instant.

Mate, both sides cannot heal melee when they're fighting on the flag if they're outside of their party, they constantly break LoS. You've made some good points so far, but don't turn this instantly about caster vs melee, Order vs Destro, PuG vs premade - it gets tiring hearing the same excuses for every single thread on the forum.

[Amdus]

What could possibly make sense about a pole that is in no way hiding your location breaking LoS and cancelling a spell? If it was a pillar that fully blocked him from view I'd have no issue. If I can't see him the spell should cancel, that's fine. But if I can still clearly see him it makes absolutely no sense that he is out of LoS and my spell should not be broken.

And you seem to be pretty hung up on me being a caster (I assume because my Sorc is at the top of my signature), I play tank and healer far more, which would benefit from the status quo as with them I can dance around the flag to be safe from BWs and Engies. However I never intentionally do this because it makes no sense to me that the flag should cancel a cast when I'm clearly still in sight of the caster. My choice of class has no bearing on this. Flags blocking LoS is just stupid, they don't obstruct view in any meaningful way, they are placed smack dab in the middle of important areas of the map, and allow people to both abuse casting mechanics to avoid damage and it's geometry to avoid being punted away from the flag.

So you openly admit that you never use the flags at your advantage because according to your logic, it's stupid. And now you want everyone to acknowledge that this is stupid because you believe it's stupid, therefore it should be the way you want because that's the only way that it's not stupid, and everyone else that uses the terrain obstacles at his advantage to outplay you are stupid, and they should just stay in place so casters can melt him down, otherwise they are stupid because a flag pole, a tiny tree trunk or a box that only covers the body partially shouldn't count as a LoS obstacle because otherwise they are stupid because you say that they don't count as LoS obstacles in a meaningful way.

I have never played any MMO with flags where these don't count as LoS Obstacles, it's been like that in all the MMO's just as trees, tall fences and boxes. A fence that goes more than half the body counts as a LoS obstacle, even though there's literally a hole where you can see the entire body of the player it still counts as a LoS obstacle, why a flag pole despite being vertical should be any different?

The "status quo" you talk about is called game design, and this game just as many others was designed this way for a reason, it was designed this way so ensnared players, tanks, healers and other people in need can use the terrain and objects at their advantage to survive longer, reverse a situation or wait for reinforcements.

Edit: And I am not done yet, I have yet to start with the: "Additionally, please only check LoS at beginning and end of cast, a split second of losing LoS should not cancel a spell entirely."

"Additionally" You seem to be one of these people that think that GM's and devs are here to serve you, to shape the game in a specific way to accommodate your needs, and if they don't do it, you throw a tantrum on the forums like you have been doing so far. Then you get confronted by someone else while having a civil discussion, but as soon as things that you don't want to hear get mentioned you go with the excuses: "You're derailing the subject.", "Leave this thread and make one of your own.". At the end of the day, the sarcasm of the guy that made the "pug issue" post was the most reasonable of all. "Additionally" lol. As if they had to follow your orders.

No that wasn't reasonable at all from him and it derailed the post instant.

Mate, both sides cannot heal melee when they're fighting on the flag if they're outside of their party, they constantly break LoS. You've made some good points so far, but don't turn this instantly about caster vs melee, Order vs Destro, PuG vs premade - it gets tiring hearing the same excuses for every single thread on the forum.

I have never said anything about absolutely any faction and I have specified clearly in multiple posts that any character can use the environment at his advantage in a legit way unless they are exploiting it, this include flag poles as well. Not to mention I haven't said anything about premades and pugs, all I said is that the guy that made the sarcastic comment about this being another whiny thread was the most reasonable of all, because it's obviously another cry post where OP wants everyone to play the way that's more convenient for him, otherwise we are "stupid".

This has been like this since the dawn of times for a reason, this is not a conspiracy of the universe to ruin the life of casters/ranged, it serves a purpose.

[Zaxxond]

Melee and healers need all the help they can get. Let them have their LoS breaking flags. It’s not like melee can hit or pull you through terrain or flags without LoS.

It’s a cheap move breaking LoS by using the flag. Everyone knows it and everyone does it because they are pro. Especially Drow and those Order try hards Lords. People will justify its good strategy and good game play. Those players fathers are very ashamed of them and wish they had a normal well adjusted sons.

[Vayra]

So you openly admit that you never use the flags at your advantage because according to your logic, it's stupid. And now you want everyone to acknowledge that this is stupid because you believe it's stupid, therefore it should be the way you want because that's the only way that it's not stupid, and everyone else that uses the terrain obstacles at his advantage to outplay you are stupid, and they should just stay in place so casters can melt him down, otherwise they are stupid because a flag pole, a tiny tree trunk or a box that only covers the body partially shouldn't count as a LoS obstacle because otherwise they are stupid because you say that they don't count as LoS obstacles in a meaningful way.

I see you like putting words in my mouth, please show me exactly where I call people stupid for using game mechanics to their advantage (hint: you won't find it because I didn't).

I have never played any MMO with flags where these don't count as LoS Obstacles, it's been like that in all the MMO's just as trees, tall fences and boxes. A fence that goes more than half the body counts as a LoS obstacle, even though there's literally a hole where you can see the entire body of the player it still counts as a LoS obstacle, why a flag pole despite being vertical should be any different?

The "status quo" you talk about is called game design, and this game just as many others was designed this way for a reason, it was designed this way so ensnared players, tanks, healers and other people in need can use the terrain and objects at their advantage to survive longer, reverse a situation or wait for reinforcements.

Most MMOs don't cancel casts mid-cast if someone temporarily goes out of LoS. And this game didn't either on live, FYI. As for why flagpoles should be different from see-through fences? They shouldn't. If you can see through it you should have LoS on the target. Seems obvious no? You can see it it's in your Line of Sight.

Edit: And I am not done yet, I have yet to start with the: "Additionally, please only check LoS at beginning and end of cast, a split second of losing LoS should not cancel a spell entirely."

"Additionally" You seem to be one of these people that think that GM's and devs are here to serve you, to shape the game in a specific way to accommodate your needs, and if they don't do it, you throw a tantrum on the forums like you have been doing so far. Then you get confronted by someone else while having a civil discussion, but as soon as things that you don't want to hear get mentioned you go with the excuses: "You're derailing the subject.", "Leave this thread and make one of your own.". At the end of the day, the sarcasm of the guy that made the "pug issue" post was the most reasonable of all. "Additionally" lol. As if they had to follow your orders.

I would like to refer you to the name of this subforum: Suggestions & Feedback. The entire point of this subforum is to give feedback for what we as players want changed. This post is me asking for a change to something I find to be unreasonable. Don't like my suggestion? Argue in good faith against it. All your posts so far have been made with bad faith arguments and/or attacking me as a person rather than my suggestion for a change. This last quote is an excellent example. You use my wording (for a language I speak and write as a 3rd language no less) to insinuate that I think the devs have to do what I want them to when what I am doing is asking[\b] them to change something. Not demanding, not expecting, asking.

I am not going to bother responding to any more of your posts unless you start making good faith arguments against (or for) my proposal.

[Vayra]

Here's an example of what I'm asking to change. Is this warrior priest really out of my sight (apart from the big orc in the way)?



Literally no part of his model is covered by the pole, yet he's out of LoS according to the game. That's what I want to change.