Debate about why Order is how it is.

[jvlosky]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

You play with your 'mirrors' abilities and we shall see what is what.



I believe Destro is overtuned. Not by a large margin but by a large enough margin that when it comes to organized 24 vs 24 for city Destro is at an advantage.



Still super surprised a SW buff didnt come out at the same time as the Mara buff. It needs to be mentioned.


Also Destro has more viable aoe specced melee, which helps a **** ton. SW and AM are dead in the water and are lacking. Heck if you compare classes on Order and Destro the Destro class is often better. (Look at you Chosen who complain KOTBS is better but have no idea what they are talking about).





Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

[Vayra]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

You play with your 'mirrors' abilities and we shall see what is what.


Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

That actually sounds like it could be real good fun. Would need some work to properly swap around the SW/SH/WL/Mara (could go SW/SH and WL/Mara for simplicity), and something to fix gearing issues like DoK/WP dps using dual wield vs 2 hander. But I like the idea and would love to see it happen.

[Wam]

Alright.

Some good points, some thick bias, a little bit of derailing, and quite a lot of good posts so far

First of all,
@TUP

There is no bragging rights to be had ... there is a difference between stating facts and gloating, just because in written text it might come off both go hand in hand... you are only as good as your last fight and last fight was puggy and last raid zergy...

Because of more unique position we have been without realm bias, I have to put the point across because order is not "hopeless" or "underdog" these are self labelled pity party terms that accepts defeatism... order can be strong just they usually beat themselves, by either a) not respecting composition enough and putting any time or knowledge into it b) stylistically playing straight into destro's hands way too much

Order stack up then complain about being morale bombed... who is to blame? you are in control of your own movement, if you are not running counter morale tactics, who is to blame for your own positioning... too many times order get baited or stack for no reason... you should only stack if you think you can dominate other team.

Order who put in minimum work gets minimum results, order who put in more work get more results. Balance wise, dare i say it I think the dev's have maybe made the game as balanced as its ever been, even with some issues here and there... (some niche classes overlooked alot and lack role) order's structure is the problem and the "create overflow" stack on me mentality coming back to bite order in the ass, if order puggies who cry about "imbalances" made some effort joined a guild that suit their needs... pick a guild there is many good order guilds with 3fg curse always looking for members... stuck with it and gave it a fair chance you would see the win% alot closer in my opinion.

Join a big guild, join a small guild, make alliance wbs and bring more 2/2/2 setups... that alone would make order slightly more competitive across the board, but order have a very "solo" mentality in a team MMO game... you cannot blame destro for your realm mates choices. If people want to play solo classes in that way, that is their choice even if they drag things down for rest, make your own group and dont invite solo player classes. Let all solo players solo que / form their own thing and decrease the chances of 1-2 instances... instead of many in my opinion.

Sometimes fights come down to fine margins too, and things snowball / momentum and psychology is a thing in cities.

[Nekkma]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

You play with your 'mirrors' abilities and we shall see what is what.



I believe Destro is overtuned. Not by a large margin but by a large enough margin that when it comes to organized 24 vs 24 for city Destro is at an advantage.



Still super surprised a SW buff didnt come out at the same time as the Mara buff. It needs to be mentioned.


Also Destro has more viable aoe specced melee, which helps a **** ton. SW and AM are dead in the water and are lacking. Heck if you compare classes on Order and Destro the Destro class is often better. (Look at you Chosen who complain KOTBS is better but have no idea what they are talking about).





Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

I have had one even city fight out of about 20 or so. the other 19 have been complete stomps from one side or the other. This has nothing to do with balance between side and everything to do of the quality of the respective groups and set ups.

[Wam]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

In theory good... i like the idea but in reality hahahahahahahahaha

THE AMOUNT OF BUGS WHICH WOULD HAPPEN AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME DEVS WOULD NEED TO DO THIS

Things bug out in unrelated patches... now such a massive overall like this with so many hundreds of skills and tactics

would be recipe for disaster

and yes chosens have been nerfed and missing crippling strikes, and ravage spam reeeeeee ... and raze to m3 haha... and overlord nerf...

Many things happend to chosen which brought it down, somethings slightly brought kotbs down but kotbs still superior in snb and 2hander... all tanks if played right are fairly/pretty good but chosen got brought down more than others.

Back on topic, grass is always greener on other side

[normanis]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

You play with your 'mirrors' abilities and we shall see what is what.



I believe Destro is overtuned. Not by a large margin but by a large enough margin that when it comes to organized 24 vs 24 for city Destro is at an advantage.



Still super surprised a SW buff didnt come out at the same time as the Mara buff. It needs to be mentioned.


Also Destro has more viable aoe specced melee, which helps a **** ton. SW and AM are dead in the water and are lacking. Heck if you compare classes on Order and Destro the Destro class is often better. (Look at you Chosen who complain KOTBS is better but have no idea what they are talking about).





Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

+

[jvlosky]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

In theory good... i like the idea but in reality hahahahahahahahaha

THE AMOUNT OF BUGS WHICH WOULD HAPPEN AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME DEVS WOULD NEED TO DO THIS

Things bug out in unrelated patches... now such a massive overall like this with so many hundreds of skills and tactics

would be recipe for disaster

and yes chosens have been nerfed and missing crippling strikes, and ravage spam reeeeeee ... and raze to m3 haha... and overlord nerf...

Many things happend to chosen which brought it down, somethings slightly brought kotbs down but kotbs still superior in snb and 2hander... all tanks if played right are fairly/pretty good but chosen got brought down more than others.

Back on topic, grass is always greener on other side

I think you're wrong but okay. I would say the grass is greener on the side that wins more.....

[EsthelielSunfury]

To give you an idea of how organised destro have to be: in the siege that just happened there were 4+ full destro 24-man warbands that didn't get into city and they all queued up as quick as possible, say nothing of the 12-mans, 6-mans and soloers.

How many order soloers got in?

Doesn't that just show that the veterans and city loggers are playing Destro more than Order if so many players had to sit out? Why do they do that? I'm not quickly jumping to "Destro is OP" or some low-effort like that, but surely you can see there's a choice out there being made?

[emiliorv]

Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

I would pay for this (i play destro)

[Wam]

The be all end all to this would be to switch abilities from Order to Destro and vice versa for a week.

Switch abilities for a week, lets see Destro put their money where their mouth is. It would be a really good experiment.

In theory good... i like the idea but in reality hahahahahahahahaha

THE AMOUNT OF BUGS WHICH WOULD HAPPEN AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME DEVS WOULD NEED TO DO THIS

Things bug out in unrelated patches... now such a massive overall like this with so many hundreds of skills and tactics

would be recipe for disaster

and yes chosens have been nerfed and missing crippling strikes, and ravage spam reeeeeee ... and raze to m3 haha... and overlord nerf...

Many things happend to chosen which brought it down, somethings slightly brought kotbs down but kotbs still superior in snb and 2hander... all tanks if played right are fairly/pretty good but chosen got brought down more than others.

Back on topic, grass is always greener on other side

I think you're wrong but okay. I would say the grass is greener on the side that wins more.....

Sometimes it is almost like putting professional sports players who train multiple times a week... vs amateurs who dont even have the right kit and have never teamed before...

It is composition balance... not class or realm balance... of course the jaded edges and outcasts like Magi/engi/sw and even welf/wh should be finetuned and made more desirable so there are no outcasts but even if they was balanced... that doesnt address composition balance because that is a player made problem, and only leaders and players can resolve that.

Time of day and whats available will always effect composition its hard to have "perfect setup" (for both sides) given the time city sieges usually happen, but atleast have a plan of what you need/want and aim towards/work around it...

Played and won multiple on both sides I know how the grass is "class balance wise mechanically talking". Both sides got strength and weaknesses.