Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Telen]

Sorry no offence, but you are missing my point. When you are compairring 2 mirror classes ... and only 2 mirror (because you cant compare Engi/Magus too WH/WE or AM/Sham). I would pick the class that suits my playstile as an introvert over classes that would benefit my realm - and the order realm just have more classes, that would suit my playstile compared too destro.

Ok so how does spirit damage 'stick around' longer than other forms like corp?

If anything WE have the advvantage that ailments are not cleansed by WP group cleanse while WH are by Dok. The same goes for AM dots compared to Shaman.

[cfabr]

Sorry no offence, but you are missing my point. When you are compairring 2 mirror classes ... and only 2 mirror (because you cant compare Engi/Magus too WH/WE or AM/Sham). I would pick the class that suits my playstile as an introvert over classes that would benefit my realm - and the order realm just have more classes, that would suit my playstile compared too destro.

Ok so how does spirit damage 'stick around' longer than other forms like corp?

If anything WE have the advvantage that ailments are not cleansed by WP group cleanse while WH are by Dok. The same goes for AM dots compared to Shaman.

You are thinking in another way - You are thinking synergy between classes. I'm thinking, what class suits me the best without relying on others.
Might just be a personal experience ... but when playing AM, it feels like a lot of their abilities just "hit and stick" better to their target when compared to Sham. Eventhough, they are basically specced the same way .

[wonshot]

So ive given it some thourght myself, as my intial post suggest. I think this spiral starts with Order tanks (or atleast involve and affect the outcome on the bottom line)

Some of the most known tanks on the server(on Order), is either that one typing in region chat and you had to decode every message, the swordmaster who is giving new meaning to what is overextending, or the drunk ib spamming in german. Yes Order have some nice tank players, and good tools. But the tools are for organized play, when did you last see a No Escape or Solarflare win a pug sc or city instance for order? Generally speaking.

Where as on destro, you find tanks even in Sword and board queueing for pug scenarios with no other purpose than mitigating damage output from Order or guardbotting either because their tank classes actually look good, subjective, or because they have easier pug tools to do so.
Morale pump on block, and throwing out an aoe silence for 5sec on Blackorc M3 or Chosen getting M2 Bellow early on, are very impactful tools in unorganized & organized settings, and they get them faster than a knight getting to No Escape or Solarflare if we are still comparing these tank morales and tools available to fit the archtype fantasy of being the shield in the front and harashing, interrupting and mitigating damage on a tank archtype.


** (I do know that Cripplingstrike is a thing of the past for Chosen and doing Bellow every 1minut is clearly not the same as we saw Chosen being the mitigating debuffing tank on Live)

[Martok]

You need to read the context around that quote. People don't like being forced into doing things...

A lesson we all should have learned from the Core Guard Ability Change experience of 2019. Your point is simple yet elegant and I fail to understand why so many seem unable to grasp it.

...and if they don't have fun playing something, the alternative is not only to go play what other people want them to play, it's also don't play at all...

Well said. I made this same point a few weeks back in a thread concerning a possible City Pug Instance and the response I received from within administration amounted to "whatever". OK, if that sentiment constitutes the controlling mentality then in regard to the issue cited in the OP here nature will eventually take its course and it will all become moot.

...or to keep playing just to stick it to people who are hypocrites.

Well said again.

The whole point of my post and recommendation is "less stick, more carrot" and lowering some barriers that might motivate against rerolling or switching.

Yeah, agreed. However another aspect of this issue is expressed by the willingness of a certain percentage of the player-base to conform in order to insure perpetual inclusion within that certain percentage of the player-base. Meaning the stick being employed doesn't bother them.

Which constitutes another reason I support the idea of a PUG City instance. When I see a number of SW's or WH's or Engi's or DPS AM's or AM's in any spec all standing around outside the city gates trying to find a warband and ultimately being forced to solo-que or not get in the city at all it bothers me because it gives me pause to wonder if that was truly the intent of how the system was designed.

I know the response I will get to having expressed that concern, the standard litany of "get gud," "find a guild," "learn to play," blah blah blah. However once you get past the third-grade playground level insults the issue, as you articulated above, still remains.

But I don't much care either way. If you think the stick has been working out so well for you, keep trying it. I don't think we'd have this thread if that method was working.

Correct. However in one regard that method is working. The end result remains to be seen.

[Telen]

You are thinking in another way - You are thinking synergy between classes. I'm thinking, what class suits me the best without relying on others.
Might just be a personal experience ... but when playing AM, it feels like a lot of their abilities just "hit and stick" better to their target when compared to Sham. Eventhough, they are basically specced the same way .

Shaman dont have deal with gcleansing from the most played healer. They also dont have to deal with M2 group cleanse. Of course Shaman dots are going to 'stick' more. Where AM has an advantage is the SM aoe resist debuff synergy.
Feelings are just that. Classes in War might have similarities but thats a very shallow take. Its how other classes mix or counter them that makes them completely different.

[Mordd]

Spoiler:

IB: Speccable long range knockback that made all destro green with envy Knock down if choppa parries.
Also: oathstone+g&b right after punt cause des gonna be pissed - or shield sweep to push them back a bit. And start with taunt and challenge.

rSW: disarm. heal debuff. dot. debuff. dot. burst. No choppa
edit: engie disarms, I've forgotten that SWs got melee disarm. AMs can AP drain that choppa getting target from pulled teammate he's healing. So many ways

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WLs got aoe. And added bonus of being bane of healers and most will run or self heal giving your side pressure advantage (meanwhile invisible WHs flank front line and get on backs of heals). Pouncing SMs are for guard and added dmg. Also: WL&SMs jump from behind HTL tanks on /assist. They can't target in a fray.
And a charging squig - you see that a long way coming

Karak Norn way of doing things

Legitimate question: are you an idiot?

This is how we played. These are strategems used on Karak Norn and developed by duelling each other (disarm 1st on rSW comes from being pulled in duel). I give you these pieces of advice because I know it can be done because I've done it and I've seen it done, it's pretty basic guild warband playstyle, even newbies in rvr guilds had done it.

Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.

SO we jsut have to keep 1 tank pre targeted and waiting for every choppa and spot him in the blob for when hes going to channel and stop him..... thats your solution. lol

PRE-targeted? LOL

Get your target off /assist. Call out on voice. Use bloody emote to coordinate with other warbands. This is basic stuff, come on...

I have a pile of 20+ melee in front of me with a couple of choppa in the middle. Who am I going to assist to get the ones target that is doing GTtC? How does that even matter when it pulls on the first tic? Im pulled and dead before I could interrupt it. since its undefendable it pulls tanks every bit as effective as a level 1 BW.

You are doing nothing more than making excuses to hold onto a huge destro advantage. You setup strawman arguments that arent realistic even in organized city fights, let alone the chaos of keeps and forts.

[Stophy22]

man a lot of people got mad at my solution to GTDC... IF a tank gets pulled you should be happy it wasnt a healer or dps. Then you should taunt when you land or in air. But regardless of this it was an option for counter play. Choppa uses GTDC (obvious arms swinging tornado animation) target and taunt. If you can't do that idk how you can interrupt resses, group heals, or anything else worth being interrupted.

Huge destro advantage is GTDC? Huge order advantage is rampage, you shouldn't change 1 without changing the other.

[NSKaneda]

I have a pile of 20+ melee in front of me with a couple of choppa in the middle. Who am I going to assist to get the ones target that is doing GTtC? How does that even matter when it pulls on the first tic? Im pulled and dead before I could interrupt it. since its undefendable it pulls tanks every bit as effective as a level 1 BW.

You are doing nothing more than making excuses to hold onto a huge destro advantage. You setup strawman arguments that arent realistic even in organized city fights, let alone the chaos of keeps and forts.

Choppa pulls you. You taunt, challenge, call out on voice or use targeted emote to let teammates know you need /assist. Range disarm comes in. You knock back or knock down and focus target down.

Next target.

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I played live for 5 years. From server launch to server close down. Guild warbands three times a week, once a week guild training, twice a week guild pre-made party dungeon crawl to get coordination going. Setup strawnman arguments? We didn't have friendly dev ear back then, once imbalance struck with a patch you had to adapt for weeks or months before next change. Develop new ways to counter fotm tactic. And use different tactics and setups according to what ppl wanted to play and where you played. Roaming wb, bombing wb, range assist, ST pain train, shield wall+pouncing for Moonblob bomb warbands, constant flanking and positioning, teams of WHs operating behind enemy lines and coordinated on voice... Noone wanted to roam and loose so we tried out new things, mostly because mindless zerging got boring real quick. Hardly anyone in my guild xrealmed (8h xrealm lock was a blessing after months of mailbox wars and scenario afks) , if you wanted to play other faction you did that on another server (I had mains on KN and des on Badlands ).

Huge des advantage? Really? If you can't use your silences, disarms, slow downs, CD increasers and other CC in semi organised manner blame's on you.

[Dackle]

Spoiler:

I'll be honest, this thread has got me 90% towards quitting playing (I won't be missed, no one can have my stuff), because i only want to play order but its so frustrating how bad we (collectively) play. This post is going to be about the orvr zones.

Pushing mid zones and then putting no effort into the next zone, fighting at WCs instead of fighting for BO's/ranking up keeps, not putting full warbands on posterns during attacks and defences or managing to get people there who then fomo back to mid in dribs and drabs, so many people afk leeching renown in zones putting in no/minimal effort but not actually helping, some of these people don't even have the manners to get off their horses.

2 days ago BFP, Gnol Baraz finally taken after several hours of failed 'pushes', 180 order in zone, 80 destro... majority of order chase destro to WC and stay there, no one takes responsibility for capping the BOs in the badlands, 1fg destro recaps the undefended keep, took over 20 minutes to finally lock the zone down, **** embarrassing. This clusterfuck is becoming the normal as minimal effort is put in by majority of faction.

Order blob pushes when it has overwhelming numbers but doesn't learn, employs no good practice so when its anything like even numbers (and there I think we struggle due to class composition and certain class mechanics (GtdC)) there is no one taking responsibility for things like defending posterns while working on an inner to stop reinforcements getting in and virtually no one gives any consideration of the importance of BO control, another example Praag yesterday, order had twice the number and were all fighting over MS, destro just held the other 3 BOs all the time I was watching.

Very few people follow WB leaders, so very few people step up to lead, meaning most WBs in zones are pugs with no direction or being led by a leader who is trying but less than 50% of the wb listen so that gets frustrating, the few organised WBs appear to make a difference but often there seems to be too few of them to take ownership of the battlefield elements that require ownership.

Here I too am part of the problem, tried to lead pug WBs and got frustrated with (most) people not following so mostly just try to keep groups fixed and make sure people are at objective, joined a guild and had a few good rvr WBs and couple of good 3fg city premades but didn't like the guild politics or discord so left, I also don't attempt to join groups that require discord because I'm old and grumpy (that one is totally on me).

I think things like this, that happen all too frequently, are some of the biggest signs that Order is far more full of casuals than people want to believe. And I noticed this even before the peon wave. Destro would have group moving to BOs in the next zone before the previous one would be locked, ready for the flip to get the supply runs going while Order would just be letting themselves get farmed outside their WC by half their number, completely oblivious. Caledor and Eataine being the most glaring examples of this, but at the opening of a zone it's just 'run straight out of the warcamp and fight what's in front of you until someone says 'ram!' in chat.' I've seen Destro with 100% aao but all the BOs and leveling their keep uncontested because Order isn't doing anything but fighting at the nearest BO and usually doing a terrible job of it.

And all this just has to do with the mindset. Casuals are more numerous in Order, despite the faction overall being slightly outnumbered, and it makes for a tough time for the relatively few players trying to get something organized and going. And unfortunately, I nor anyone else should really be telling these people they're 'doing it wrong' or something similar : I'm not going to tell people who only log on sporadically for some random, fun rvr for an hour or two amidst their real world lives not to come here and do what makes them happy. LIttle spats over 'I'm here for pvp, I don't care about objectives' and 'sitting on flags is boring' are fairly common in Order chat.

All in all, to the quoted poster, yeah it's frustrating and it's great you've tried to lead warbands yourself and get people organized. But you chose Order, and this is just how we are.

Another way of saying this; Destro is too try-hard! Destro is way too full of easy mode warband crawlers that can't do anything without a zerg. Casual vs. Tryhard Which one are you? (proverbial)

[Manatikik]

man a lot of people got mad at my solution to GTDC... IF a tank gets pulled you should be happy it wasnt a healer or dps. Then you should taunt when you land or in air. But regardless of this it was an option for counter play. Choppa uses GTDC (obvious arms swinging tornado animation) target and taunt. If you can't do that idk how you can interrupt resses, group heals, or anything else worth being interrupted.

Huge destro advantage is GTDC? Huge order advantage is rampage, you shouldn't change 1 without changing the other.

I think you're looking at too broad of a perspective (for this thread, which is only about cities). GTDC pulls on its first tick and is undefendable - this means there is 0 counterplay to losing at least 1 (assuming the Choppas don't "exploit" the two pull bug) player on Order per Choppa per pull. A normal composition will consist of 2 Choppas this means that every 20 s Order will be guaranteed to lose 2(4)/24 of their WB with no counterplay; depending on what class gets pulled it breaks down to delaying Order's win condition like this: BW ~9s, Knight 90s, Slayer 36s, WL 36s, WH ~16s and relate this to Destro where their longest win condition morale time is less than 60s on a MSH for M4 AND they will have M3 on all BO by ~20s. Losing a portion of your WB to situations you can prevent is totally acceptable and good design but when there is 0 counterplay and one side essentially will always have a numbers and morale advantage (even more so than is intended) due to pressing a button with 0 necessary thought into positioning or whathave you is just bad design.

Compare this to Rampage where in Cities its a pretty good skill but not game busting at all (unlike other facets where Rampage is busted af). They both need to be changed in different ways for different reasons but please don't use a false equivalency to try and justify GTDC busted state in current cities - or maybe you were just ignorant to the situation surrounding this one imabalance.