WH balance - snap shot build execution

[siglade]

Agree with Krima, thought if it proc bullets it's less than witchbrew+kiss in that regard

Both class suffer to not have a snare ability in melee, it's annoying when u have to run and a WH/WE spam snare (any decent player can ignore it) but also it's annoying to be kited so easily by all class because of the absence of snare.

I used weap epic quest/city but after the nerf weap lost a lot of value because it no longer proc on hit..

[Zxul]

@Krima Your reaction is a bit over the top and you are making it out to be better than it would actually be. It would definitely not make WH a competitive ranged class at all. It would increase utility a little.

WHs using snapshot wouldnt be in range to do auto attacks (which account for a large amount of our damage), and snapshot does pitiful damage.

It would take so long to build up to 5 accusations with snapshot that there wouldnt be any 5 accusation absolutions used based on snapshot.

Flowing accusations already exists and when you use absolution with 1 or 2 accusation it does mediocre damage, and the bullet damage is mediocre by it self since they dont crit.

Prolonged confessions might make some niche build with it, but you would still be missing out on auto attack damage and damage from your main attacks like torment. You wouldnt be able to burst anything down.

Erm no

With spec based about Absolution/Bullets spam, wh with this suggestion will be able to spam 1-2 accusations Absolution without ever getting into melee range, while also constantly ignoring 50% armor so that 1-2 accusations Absolution actually does a good dmg, combined with getting Bullet on each Absolution to buff dmg even more, and then also getting a decent self healing out of the setup.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,4381,6103

[Boursk]

No.

[Tharlin]

Just for the "fluff" the snap shot on WH should proc his bullets.

Kisses proc from every attack of the WE but bullets only from accusations. It was said, that it is a pistol only ability and so can't be adjusted to work the same way as WE kisses do.

But then bullets should proc on every snap shot too.

[Momekic]

@Krima Your reaction is a bit over the top and you are making it out to be better than it would actually be. It would definitely not make WH a competitive ranged class at all. It would increase utility a little.

WHs using snapshot wouldnt be in range to do auto attacks (which account for a large amount of our damage), and snapshot does pitiful damage.

It would take so long to build up to 5 accusations with snapshot that there wouldnt be any 5 accusation absolutions used based on snapshot.

Flowing accusations already exists and when you use absolution with 1 or 2 accusation it does mediocre damage, and the bullet damage is mediocre by it self since they dont crit.

Prolonged confessions might make some niche build with it, but you would still be missing out on auto attack damage and damage from your main attacks like torment. You wouldnt be able to burst anything down.

Erm no

With spec based about Absolution/Bullets spam, wh with this suggestion will be able to spam 1-2 accusations Absolution without ever getting into melee range, while also constantly ignoring 50% armor so that 1-2 accusations Absolution actually does a good dmg, combined with getting Bullet on each Absolution to buff dmg even more, and then also getting a decent self healing out of the setup.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,4381,6103

I understand your concern, and I can see where you might feel Blessed Blade in combination with Snapshot and accusation spam might be strong. That build may seem good to you on paper, but in reality you arent going to kill anything with Snapshot + Accusation/Bullet spam at range, even with Blessed Blade.

My guess is that you don't play WH. As I mentioned in my previous post, a majority of our damage comes from auto attacks and torment/razer strike (with blessed blade), then leading into the finisher. Blessed Blade only lasts for 3 seconds, so you get one global cooldown skill within that time, and then the rest of the damage that benefits from Blessed Blade is from auto attacks.

With just snapshot spam and finisher/bullet spam, you wont be in melee range and unable to utilize the important damage we need to kill people. The only thing you will kill with that snapshot and finisher/bullet spam is someone running away that is already dying.

All ranged classes will still demolish you if you stayed at range using Snapshot and 1-2 accusation finisher, healers will still be able to out last you, tanks have a ton of toughness, so they will still be able to mitigate your small Snapshot and okay Finisher damage, and dps classes can just face you to not get the snare and fight you face on (putting you in melee range with them thus you wouldnt be using snapshot here to build any more accusations). All it does is add a little more utility to be able to have one or 2 more accusations in a fight. All that is 1v1, which is pretty much moot in RoR, since the devs have stated they don't balance around 1v1.

In a group situation, this would help a WH out to have a little more utility to be able to engage in a fight faster with their group. When you see WLs pouncing in and Slayers aoeing the crap out of everything, this will help you get in 1 or 2 extra accusations in order to help engage a little better in the fight.

Edit: I also wanted to ask as a side note: Why would bullet procs on Snapshot be overpowered compared to the current capability of WE's having kisses and Witch brew proc off of their throw dagger?

[Zxul]

Spoiler:

@Krima Your reaction is a bit over the top and you are making it out to be better than it would actually be. It would definitely not make WH a competitive ranged class at all. It would increase utility a little.

WHs using snapshot wouldnt be in range to do auto attacks (which account for a large amount of our damage), and snapshot does pitiful damage.

It would take so long to build up to 5 accusations with snapshot that there wouldnt be any 5 accusation absolutions used based on snapshot.

Flowing accusations already exists and when you use absolution with 1 or 2 accusation it does mediocre damage, and the bullet damage is mediocre by it self since they dont crit.

Prolonged confessions might make some niche build with it, but you would still be missing out on auto attack damage and damage from your main attacks like torment. You wouldnt be able to burst anything down.

Erm no

With spec based about Absolution/Bullets spam, wh with this suggestion will be able to spam 1-2 accusations Absolution without ever getting into melee range, while also constantly ignoring 50% armor so that 1-2 accusations Absolution actually does a good dmg, combined with getting Bullet on each Absolution to buff dmg even more, and then also getting a decent self healing out of the setup.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,4381,6103

I understand your concern, and I can see where you might feel Blessed Blade in combination with Snapshot and accusation spam might be strong. That build may seem good to you on paper, but in reality you arent going to kill anything with Snapshot + Accusation/Bullet spam at range, even with Blessed Blade.

My guess is that you don't play WH. As I mentioned in my previous post, a majority of our damage comes from auto attacks and torment/razer strike (with blessed blade), then leading into the finisher. Blessed Blade only lasts for 3 seconds, so you get one global cooldown skill within that time, and then the rest of the damage that benefits from Blessed Blade is from auto attacks.

With just snapshot spam and finisher/bullet spam, you wont be in melee range and unable to utilize the important damage we need to kill people. The only thing you will kill with that snapshot and finisher/bullet spam is someone running away that is already dying.

I however do play WE, as well as dok which similarly utilizes aa to do dmg, and yet killed plenty of people without ever getting into melee range. And this build with Snapshot building points will be much stronger than Fist spam.

Also, I did run into whs utilizing exactly that Bullet build. And no, Razor spam is not the only wh build.

With that Build 3/4 out of your attacks will be Absolution ignoring 50% armor+Bullet in same gcd- which, again speaking from facing wh which do just that, works very fine.

All ranged classes will still demolish you if you stayed at range using Snapshot and 1-2 accusation finisher, healers will still be able to out last you, tanks have a ton of toughness, so they will still be able to mitigate your small Snapshot and okay Finisher damage, and dps classes can just face you to not get the snare and fight you face on (putting you in melee range with them thus you wouldnt be using snapshot here to build any more accusations). All it does is add a little more utility to be able to have one or 2 more accusations in a fight. All that is 1v1, which is pretty much moot in RoR, since the devs have stated they don't balance around 1v1.

And again, from facing wh using this build- between self healing from Bullets and absorb tactic, they have plenty of sustain to outlast ranged classes. Tanks will get burned by Bullets, which ignore toughness, and you are getting lot of those off- like I said, with your change 3/4 out of your attacks will be Absolution and not Snapshot. And you didn't seem to mention that by using Feinted Positioning wh has a ranged snare, no matter how dps classes are facing.

More important, this isn't just 1v1 build- with this change wh will be able to play as a fully ranged class in large fights, which means a vast change. Also, lets not forget building Accusations for Dragon Gun and aoe draining morale, without ever getting into melee range.

In a group situation, this would help a WH out to have a little more utility to be able to engage in a fight faster with their group. When you see WLs pouncing in and Slayers aoeing the crap out of everything, this will help you get in 1 or 2 extra accusations in order to help engage a little better in the fight.

Like I said above, this will do much more than that.

Edit: I also wanted to ask as a side note: Why would bullet procs on Snapshot be overpowered compared to the current capability of WE's having kisses and Witch brew proc off of their throw dagger?

Cause that is not what you suggested. What you actually suggested in this thread is vastly different from Snapshot having a chance to proc Bullets.

[Koha]

Option 1 - Building combo with snapshot / throw dagger : I can't imagine making this kind of changes if not mirrored. As many people already pointed out this would be far to strong with WB. On the WH I'm not convinced it would give such an impact dps wise : 1-2 pts Absolutions, with no AA and a snapshot in between... Well it could be as annoying as throwing dagger with WB and kisses procs and last forever indeed. On both WE and WH it would give them a better impact on large scale fights, being able to enter the fray with some combo points ready is nice when you're light armored. But that might require to change WB a bit I suppose (no procs on throwing dagger ?).

Option 2 - Bullets procs on snapshot : damage change ... are we gonna discuss this ? It would help WH to keep some debuffs up : AP drain proc and outgoing debuff are much less effective on WH than on WE. Trying to keep them up on a WH at the same level as a WE is gimping its gameplay and burst capacity and you barely make it for the AP drain. This proposal would not change it but might help to fill the gaps.

[Atropik]

Option 2 - Bullets procs on snapshot : damage change ... are we gonna discuss this ?

damage change - cut it twice
duration change - cut it twice xd And im all up for this!