Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

[Jabba]

Honestly, if they do this how could it be anything but that meme-y "Order bias" but for real this time?

No need for that, just look at the posts that are closed within minutes/hours on the forum like this one without any word

It has nothing at all to do with the fact that there's a new thread whingeing about rampage every other day, no, nothing at all......./s

[GamesBond]

No need for that, just look at the posts that are closed within minutes/hours on the forum like this one without any word

Locked threads do not mean that we didn't get the message. Many locked threads have had their 'suggestion' implemented. However, a small niche of players think that multiplying previously discussed threads would work into their favor, while it just opens up a hundred-post long thread where it's pro-nerf/buff vs anti-nerf/buff folks again, just like the previous 2-3 threads.

Specifically that thread you linked was based on "oh you nerfed X, why don't you nerf Y" without reading previous threads or considering actual gameplay solutions that have been suggested by others.

Now let's not drift from this topic, I just wanted to clarify the above. Also please don't fall into the "order/destro bias" trap other players set for you.

[Oglaf]

What about this:

"Any time you are critically hit, you and your group mates become 10% less likely to be critically hit for X (5-10?) seconds. This ability cannot refresh itself (like Daemonclaw)."

Retains the defensive nature of the original change, but toned down since it is limited to 6 characters unlike the original tactic which debuffed the enemies themselves leading to infinite potential.

[Secrets]

What about this:

"Any time you are critically hit, you and your group mates become 10% less likely to be critically hit for X (5-10?) seconds. This ability cannot refresh itself (like Daemonclaw)."

Retains the defensive nature of the original change, but toned down since it is limited to 6 characters unlike the original tactic which debuffed the enemies themselves leading to infinite potential.

I actually wanted it to be a per-person 10% crit reduction prior to the group buff change, with a 10 or 20s ICD per person, meaning if it was cleansed it cannot apply again for that time. Would give benefit to burying debuffs.

We're not done with the changes yet, though, and we'll continue monitoring. There's still internal discussion about the Vigilance and other related changes going, however I've been too busy (and irritable, recently had surgery) to participate so I haven't really given input. I trust in the team to do good on the changes.

[emiliorv]

misunderstanding and mix ups happen, so if that is the case things happen, move on.
Words and actions however seem to differ

I see SW change , totally op , dev response, angry not even tested, after week or so changes
I see chosen change , not that op , very powerful tuning needed , devs directly apologetic, change in a day
I see order fail to get 50% in city, buffs to order I see nerfs to Destro
I see Destro fail to take fort git gud

Totally this...

[orillah]

I did my chores and read through all pages.

ABSOLUTELY do not undestand whine from most chosen players.
There was no nerfs for snb deftard spec. Quite opposite - they took absolutely useless tactic and make it questinoble and potentially usefull for some builds/players.

The only change is opression 2h solo builds got gutted, but this builds was really against how this is "a group based game" where pretty much all solo options got nerfed one way or another.

So they took 1 tactic NOONE used and change it to smth usefull, and now there is a 17 page whine thread =)

Btw i have a question about Knight changes, They have 2 basic foundation builds:
2h - RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun
SnB - RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun

What was your intended use to the new Efficient swings and runefang tactics? Can you share examplary builds?

Runefang wasnt changed really compare to its previous forms and i can see some utilisations for it it builds like this :
1)RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun
2)RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun
But this is snb specs and nothing really changed for them.

Really want to see how can you use this detaunt dispel tactic on knight, without adressing its main damage problems - basicly poor scaling/low base damage and no access to armor debuff or ws buff.

At the end this was some small changes that not affected main snb builds and nerfed 2H ones of both Chosen and Knight, not really worth so much drama :/

[Oglaf]

I did my chores and read through all pages.

ABSOLUTELY do not undestand whine from most chosen players.
There was no nerfs for snb deftard spec. Quite opposite - they took absolutely useless tactic and make it questinoble and potentially usefull for some builds/players.

The only change is opression 2h solo builds got gutted, but this builds was really against how this is "a group based game" where pretty much all solo options got nerfed one way or another.

So they took 1 tactic NOONE used and change it to smth usefull, and now there is a 17 page whine thread =)

Btw i have a question about Knight changes, They have 2 basic foundation builds:
2h - RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun
SnB - RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun

What was your intended use to the new Efficient swings and runefang tactics? Can you share examplary builds?

Runefang wasnt changed really compare to its previous forms and i can see some utilisations for it it builds like this :
1)RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun
2)RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun
But this is snb specs and nothing really changed for them.

Really want to see how can you use this detaunt dispel tactic on knight, without adressing its main damage problems - basicly poor scaling/low base damage and no access to armor debuff or ws buff.

At the end this was some small changes that not affected main snb builds and nerfed 2H ones of both Chosen and Knight, not really worth so much drama :/

They gave us a pointless tactic and moved Mixed Defenses up the Corruption tree.

End of story.

[Meliannia]

It is good devs admit errors and fix stuff, still concerning this was given the green light in the first place, but all's well that ends well. But fair play to Secrets original post, to err is human, to forgive is divine.

Oh, my World of tanks was good thanks, Wargrim, one side wasnt given a 25% crit debuff for Fisherman Bay or El Halluf so both sides competed equally and world of tanks was working as intended. A fun and fair time was had by all.

i did get the vile Himmeldorf map though which is a worse map than College of Corruption.

[Oglaf]

So another patch came and went and no changes made.

I guess Chosen are to be left with this very underperforming tactic, huh?

[teiloh]

Thank you for the explanations; I know it can be a pain to deal with a huge player base with internal conflict.

I wanted to clarify something on balance criteria:

"5% Critical Hit Chance has the same renown rank cost as 8% Reduced Chance to be Critically Hit. We weigh tactics the same as renown investment, as they are all specialization related"

This begs the question of whether this applies across the board. For example,

Quick Escape 1 which costs 10 renown is 5% chance for 25% move speed, breaking on ability use

Run Away is free core tactic for two classes which is a 25% chance for 30% move speed, unbreakable.

Not only is Run Away faster, it procs 5 times as much, is a core racial ability and and importantly does not break on ability use. I think it's clear that it's one of the best if not the best tactic in the game. This would put Run Away! at a renown point value of anywhere from 60-100+.

It's worth noting that Destro has 7 speed increasers (excluding the mirrored Pounce speed buffs and Charge) while Order has 2 (with the new SW speed boost), all of them generally more optimally placed. It's particularly noticeable for the AM as the Shaman has benefited from tons of one-way mirroring during Mythic's time (Desperation) while giving the AM nothing in return (double uptime on PBAE detaunt, Run Away!, etc).

When these topics are brought up, we often hear "the realms aren't the same", "it's a good thematic fit", "that's how it was in the cinematic" - yet this doesn't seem to apply to universally. For example, "the realms aren't the same" except when mirroring Pounce and Ranged KD to the Squig Herder, or say giving BW Knockdown on Flame Breath (like in the cinematic).

I hope we can nail down consistent metrics for balance work in the future, so fewer of us are just shooting in the dark.