Tanks should get OOP renown for protection

[Aethilmar]

Proposal: Now that there is some capability for tracking "protection" numbers in the game, tanks (and everyone really) should get renown for out of party protection in a similar vein to how healers can get renown for out of party heals. The exact amount is TBD but should be no more than what healers currently get.

Rationale: There are two primary reasons first of which role training. Generally speaking the game should encourage (as opposed to mandate) properly playing roles. Providing renown for the application of protection by core mechanic abilities like Challenge and Hold The Line would reinforce desired behaviors as well as provide feedback to the tanks about the effectiveness of those actions (i.e. are they doing them in a away that provides some maximal benefit to those around them). This is once again similar to encouraging healers to heal others by giving them little bits of renown for doing so.

The second is personally more compelling to me but probably not as convincing which is "fairness". As it stands tanks have the hardest time acquiring renown through their intended role of any class in the game. DPS obviously can just kill and this is the primary means of making renown available. Healers enable this by following their intended role and healing (and some protection as well but are similarly unrewarded for it). But tanks can challenge and HTL among other things and they (and their party) get no benefit for keeping others alive through damage reduction. Ironically tanks get renown just like everyone else which is damage or out of party heals.

[space44]

getting RP from HTL sounds way too op HTL has no limit to who it affects while its being channeled as long as they are behind you and in range.

[diedrake]

I really dont see a lack of rr numbers at all. As is if a tank is doing their job the dps kills and healers are not dieing and keeping the tanks and dps alive to the best of thier abilities. As is tanks have it easy in rvr from what i have seen. As long as the tank is doing thier job they get a lot of bags from zone locks and normally has first dibs when forts are going up have it either def or off.
Actually my guild has a saying, " oh, you play heals or tank? You stepped foot in the zone for about 5 mins? No worries you have a res."
Saying gaining rr is hard on a tank? Not at all if you are running with people ie dps or a healer.

Only thing i see that it be hard for a tank to do its job if they are solo cause tanks, if full def tank, isnt going to kill anything. Now the question really boils down to this...

Op... Are you wanting this change because when you play a tank are you not in a grp? Because that is the only way i would see why tanks have a heard time gaining rr.

If this change did come to effect i know my rr lvls would skyrocket as challenge is aoe damage reduction which coulf effect a wb+ depending how tight the enemy is balled up. Bellows is another aoe damage reducer, and of course htl. Not to mention i play a SM which i use raking talon tactic which also reduced enemy damage in a small aoe. And those are just off the top of my head.

Again if the tank is doing thier job with others in a party... The tank should not have any isues in lack of purple numbers.

[Thunderbragi]

Yeah thats true what diedrake has written. Play in a group and you got lot of rrs. But thats a reason why i do a break in this game. Cant play enought to search a group and play evective, so for me it will give me more fun to roam solo. But you havent got a joice with a tank becouse you cant kill any thing one on one as a chosen. Any other classes, you can go in grp or solo, is fun. Maybe alot of players think that too.

[Aethilmar]

I really dont see a lack of rr numbers at all. As is if a tank is doing their job the dps kills and healers are not dieing and keeping the tanks and dps alive to the best of thier abilities. As is tanks have it easy in rvr from what i have seen. As long as the tank is doing thier job they get a lot of bags from zone locks and normally has first dibs when forts are going up have it either def or off.
Actually my guild has a saying, " oh, you play heals or tank? You stepped foot in the zone for about 5 mins? No worries you have a res."
Saying gaining rr is hard on a tank? Not at all if you are running with people ie dps or a healer.

Only thing i see that it be hard for a tank to do its job if they are solo cause tanks, if full def tank, isnt going to kill anything. Now the question really boils down to this...

Op... Are you wanting this change because when you play a tank are you not in a grp? Because that is the only way i would see why tanks have a heard time gaining rr.

If this change did come to effect i know my rr lvls would skyrocket as challenge is aoe damage reduction which coulf effect a wb+ depending how tight the enemy is balled up. Bellows is another aoe damage reducer, and of course htl. Not to mention i play a SM which i use raking talon tactic which also reduced enemy damage in a small aoe. And those are just off the top of my head.

Again if the tank is doing thier job with others in a party... The tank should not have any isues in lack of purple numbers.

By way of disclosure my highest character is a RR82 Swordmaster. But I also have an RR7x AM, an RR7x SW, an RR7x Magus, an RR6x Chosen, an RR6x WL, an RR5x WH, an RR5x Engie, an RR5x BW and an RR4x BG. I play them all solo or in groups as the mood and circumstances allow.

To answer the question do I think tanks have a hard time gaining renown, I would say compared to every non-tank class they do. They are either limited to the renown of the group or they have a lower acquisition rate solo b/c you get renown for killing stuff or healing people who kill stuff. This is just he current math of he game i.e. the renown flow (other than lord zone flips and supplies) all starts with the DPS killing stuff. You are correct that the zone reward calculations do actually seem to take into account if a tank is doing tanky stuff although I have no direct proof of that b/c the numbers are hidden.

However, Tanks allow other (non party) DPS to survive and kill things with abilities like Challenge and HTL (and some other abilities). So not only does the tank miss out on providing benefit but your party does as well. If you healer heals someone out of party you all get a split of the renown (or the healer just gets it if they are solo). Why should the tanks and the party not get rewarded for doing proper tanks things as well?

That said, I don't think the "fairness" argument is the most convincing it is just the one that I feel strongest about personally. From a game mechanics perspective tanks receive no direct feedback on whether or not they are applying the abilities in a useful way and, quite frankly, renown is a pretty good indicator of that. DPS get numbers on their screen for both damage and renown if they choose valuable targets. Healers get numbers on their screen for both heal values and renown if they chose the right targets. Tanks get ... what?

And when it comes to training people to play "the right way", feedback and rewards are essential. Just like it is generally a good thing for healers to toss heals around out of group when they can (which the game reinforces by giving them renown under the right circumstances) it would be good for tanks to get that same type of reinforcing feedback.

[Mez]

Can I hijack this thread and say characters shouldn't be able to block and disrupt spells when mounted. With the 60% chance on mount already, I can't dismount tanks at all. Maybe working as intended, and I don't want to nerf anything for tanks, but players not being dismounted is just bad game play in my opinion. But then again, I also believe the same of pulls and pounces.