do we have a balance problem?

[Gurf]

Increasers are SL=SH, and if you're talking about the single target ones (which are mostly a non-factor) then BO's is better too.

BO - 9pt ability "Not in Da Face" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 10s, 20s cooldown. 50% uptime, individual ability.
IB - 3pt tactic "Furious Reprisal" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 5s, 10s cooldown. 50% uptime, requires tactic slot, attached to a knockdown that requires a parry/block, so even if you do use the tactic, your first use only has 2s of effective use because they're knocked down for the other 3s.

Unless I'm missing something, SM has a cast-time increaser, not a cooldown increaser. Again, these are very different things.

IB 3pt tactic combo (would make more sense for it to be tied to shield sweep like on live but there were issues afair) = 7pt BO tactic combo (Big Brawlin+Big Swing).

Not in da face (ST, 20s cooldown, +5s for 10s, requires plan) = Dazzling strike (ST, no CD, +50% for 5s, requires balance)

Am I missing something?

Yes...you keep comparing cooldown increasers to cast-time increasers. They are not the same thing. Not in Da Face is NOT an equivalent to Dazzling Strike. Cooldown increasers are better. I'm sorry, I'm not really understanding why this is hard to understand.

Furious Reprisal would be compared to Not in Da Face. They both increase COOLDOWNS. Not in Da Face is much better.

Dazzling Strike would be compared to Big Brawlin' if you like. They both increase CAST-TIMES. Dazzling Strike is better. It's base-line and 50% vs 20%.

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Also the decreasers counter the increasers, so if you have a bunch of Black Ork and Choppa in your Warband you will barely feel the effect of Slayer Shattered Limbs. But as SM is low pop and WW isn't up on demand then Squig Herders Indigestion can wreck healers far more effectively, especially in choke points in City.

[CeeJay89]

Spoiler:

IB 3pt tactic combo (would make more sense for it to be tied to shield sweep like on live but there were issues afair) = 7pt BO tactic combo (Big Brawlin+Big Swing).

Not in da face (ST, 20s cooldown, +5s for 10s, requires plan) = Dazzling strike (ST, no CD, +50% for 5s, requires balance)

Am I missing something?

Yes...you keep comparing cooldown increasers to cast-time increasers. They are not the same thing. Not in Da Face is NOT an equivalent to Dazzling Strike. Cooldown increasers are better. I'm sorry, I'm not really understanding why this is hard to understand.

Furious Reprisal would be compared to Not in Da Face. They both increase COOLDOWNS. Not in Da Face is much better.

Dazzling Strike would be compared to Big Brawlin' if you like. They both increase CAST-TIMES. Dazzling Strike is better. It's base-line and 50% vs 20%.

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Also the decreasers counter the increasers, so if you have a bunch of Black Ork and Choppa in your Warband you will barely feel the effect of Slayer Shattered Limbs. But as SM is low pop and WW isn't up on demand then Squig Herders Indigestion can wreck healers far more effectively, especially in choke points in City.

This actually isn't entirely true anymore, either. The SL and SH cooldown increasers were nerfed to a max of 3s (from a max of 5s).

Cooldown decreasers have maintained their 5s decrease, so they more than counter the increaser. So the advantage, and what you're saying, is even more prominent.

[NSKaneda]

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Ok, so Chopp Fasta (-5s for 20s for group members 100ft away, counter to KOTBS To Victory! anti gtdc tool) can be countered by RP Master Rune of Speed (-0,25s for 30s 100ft range, ground targeted, not mirrored to zeal btw), SM's aoe challenge attack (ALL dmg reduced by 80% for 4 seconds, 20ft with tactic.. Talk about OP) + AP reduce cost for most of channels you hit once you're under CD increase + Whispering Winds (that's 4s silence + heals + CD decrease with tactic). My oh my, the grass does look greener...

[balvor877]

Regarding t1 this is my break down of the Order classes:

- IB used to have some nice damage when stacking str and dots. It's a watered down version of the BG now. It just doesn't perform well and therefore is not fun to play.
- RP is pretty fine in t1, so is Zealot with the advantage of the bubble. The first tactic for dwarves is a joke btw. 50% recovery from knock downs while e.g. the goblins get a 25% auto detaunt.
- Engi can be pretty powerful in t1 and suck ***** the moment they enter t2+. The Magus scales much nicer.
- Slayer is also the weaker version of the Choppa in t1. Dies pretty quick. No access to the wounds tactic.

- WH is still good regarding damage output but with my WE I can stack tough and wounds and still have good dps (fast daggers, kisses and synergies with other classes). With WH you are either squishy or a little tougher with no damage.
- WP was always good and is still good as healer. Same as the DoK with slight advantage due to bubble. However, the Dok can go dps while the WP is much weaker as dps.
- Knight: I don't play knights often but they used to perform better with 2h and stacked str.
- BW: lol, what a joke. Every tank laughing at you. Casts slow, damage meh and on top of it you are hurting yourself. BW is in a very bad shape. Sorc somehow do better. Maybe it's because they always have at least a Chosen tank and usually also a Magus.

- WL used to have some nice burst damage and used to be a thread for shamans, SHs, sorcs, etc. Now they are a joke in t1. Coordinated strike hits like a wet noodle these days. The pet is broken, you dont have
the tools of the mara, you are squishy as **** and the burst is gone.
- SW is one of the few classes who are now better in t1 then years ago. Id say it's well balanced. Not over- nor underpowered.
- AM got hit by 2 nerfs (lost 3rd dot in t1 and the nice healing of the casted drain spell). It's basically the same as shaman now, only weaker without the auto detaunt. The mechanic is bull crap.
- SM: worst tank in t1. Just awful. Bad damage, bad survivability, bad utility. Even fully tweaked just mediocre in t1.

So all in all the Order classes are just weaker versions of the Destro classes, with less utiltity or less survivablity or less damage.

The following t1 Order classes are fine as they are: RP, Engi, WP, SW, shield Knight, dps AM
To these I would give a small boost: WH, healing AM, 2h Knight
And these need a larger boost: IB (lacking sustained dps), WL (lacking frontload dps, cost of abilitites too high), BW (lacking damage/burst on tanks and healers), SM (there is nothing unique about this class, dual whielding swords would be nice)

my 2 cents

[Panodil]

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Ok, so Chopp Fasta (-5s for 20s for group members 100ft away, counter to KOTBS To Victory! anti gtdc tool) can be countered by RP Master Rune of Speed (-0,25s for 30s 100ft range, ground targeted, not mirrored to zeal btw), SM's aoe challenge attack (ALL dmg reduced by 80% for 4 seconds, 20ft with tactic.. Talk about OP) + AP reduce cost for most of channels you hit once you're under CD increase + Whispering Winds (that's 10s silence + heals + CD decrease with tactic). My oh my, the grass does look greener...

Confused. You need to read up on abilities.
SMs attack does not reduce damage by 80%.

[Cobra81]

Regarding t1 this is my break down of the Order classes:

- IB used to have some nice damage when stacking str and dots. It's a watered down version of the BG now. It just doesn't perform well and therefore is not fun to play.
- RP is pretty fine in t1, so is Zealot with the advantage of the bubble. The first tactic for dwarves is a joke btw. 50% recovery from knock downs while e.g. the goblins get a 25% auto detaunt.
- Engi can be pretty powerful in t1 and suck ***** the moment they enter t2+. The Magus scales much nicer.
- Slayer is also the weaker version of the Choppa in t1. Dies pretty quick. No access to the wounds tactic.

- WH is still good regarding damage output but with my WE I can stack tough and wounds and still have good dps (fast daggers, kisses and synergies with other classes). With WH you are either squishy or a little tougher with no damage.
- WP was always good and is still good as healer. Same as the DoK with slight advantage due to bubble. However, the Dok can go dps while the WP is much weaker as dps.
- Knight: I don't play knights often but they used to perform better with 2h and stacked str.
- BW: lol, what a joke. Every tank laughing at you. Casts slow, damage meh and on top of it you are hurting yourself. BW is in a very bad shape. Sorc somehow do better. Maybe it's because they always have at least a Chosen tank and usually also a Magus.

- WL used to have some nice burst damage and used to be a thread for shamans, SHs, sorcs, etc. Now they are a joke in t1. Coordinated strike hits like a wet noodle these days. The pet is broken, you dont have
the tools of the mara, you are squishy as **** and the burst is gone.
- SW is one of the few classes who are now better in t1 then years ago. Id say it's well balanced. Not over- nor underpowered.
- AM got hit by 2 nerfs (lost 3rd dot in t1 and the nice healing of the casted drain spell). It's basically the same as shaman now, only weaker without the auto detaunt. The mechanic is bull crap.
- SM: worst tank in t1. Just awful. Bad damage, bad survivability, bad utility. Even fully tweaked just mediocre in t1.

So all in all the Order classes are just weaker versions of the Destro classes, with less utiltity or less survivablity or less damage.

The following t1 Order classes are fine as they are: RP, Engi, WP, SW, shield Knight, dps AM
To these I would give a small boost: WH, healing AM, 2h Knight
And these need a larger boost: IB (lacking sustained dps), WL (lacking frontload dps, cost of abilitites too high), BW (lacking damage/burst on tanks and healers), SM (there is nothing unique about this class, dual whielding swords would be nice)

my 2 cents

Thats not only in T1, it goes up to T4 tbh. It has a reason why destro is always around 60% pop and more. And why Order can solo Q and instant go to city while 100 destros are in front and not able to go into city.
Sure, some classes can close the gap more or less until T4, but a deeper look in skills, tactics and mechanics shows that Destro classes have the advantage.

[NSKaneda]

SMs attack does not reduce damage by 80%.

Dragon Talon: cripple your target for 4s, reduce all dmg they deal by 80%. Combine with Raking Talons (20ft aoe) and you have free challenge attack.

[Charon]

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Ok, so Chopp Fasta (-5s for 20s for group members 100ft away, counter to KOTBS To Victory! anti gtdc tool) can be countered by RP Master Rune of Speed (-0,25s for 30s 100ft range, ground targeted, not mirrored to zeal btw), SM's aoe challenge attack (ALL dmg reduced by 80% for 4 seconds, 20ft with tactic.. Talk about OP) + AP reduce cost for most of channels you hit once you're under CD increase + Whispering Winds (that's 4s silence + heals + CD decrease with tactic). My oh my, the grass does look greener...

What ???? you realy dont have more arguaments, dont you or you just want to prove that are you idiot ...

[Gurf]

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Ok, so Chopp Fasta (-5s for 20s for group members 100ft away, counter to KOTBS To Victory! anti gtdc tool) can be countered by RP Master Rune of Speed (-0,25s for 30s 100ft range, ground targeted, not mirrored to zeal btw), SM's aoe challenge attack (ALL dmg reduced by 80% for 4 seconds, 20ft with tactic.. Talk about OP) + AP reduce cost for most of channels you hit once you're under CD increase + Whispering Winds (that's 10s silence + heals + CD decrease with tactic). My oh my, the grass does look greener...

Rune Priest loses far too much by using Master Rune of Speed over Adamant, nobody would use it for .25 second counter, not practical

[NSKaneda]

Rune Priest loses far too much by using Master Rune of Speed over Adamant, nobody would use it for .25 second counter, not practical

True but you don't need 4 runnies with HP pool