Archmage/Shaman

[Cimba]

- Change "defensive target" to no longer apply to the player, and only to group mates. This would leave AM's usefulness in groups intact, while targeting their survivability, which is where the problem lies.

This is so poorly thought out its basically a piece of art.

[Dabbart]

I don't think any large changes should be done to am/sham until their Mechanic has been worked on. Until the players(and thereby testers) have a "final" product to dance with, any change will simply be QoL and risk making any mechanic overhaul that much more complicated.

Also, I lol"d at a proposal put forth by someone A, claiming Sham/AM are the only healers to not have a grp cleanse, and B doesn't understand why divine fury is in the game or how much rebalancing of ability damage would need to be completed to effect it's removal from the game... Basic things.

[Ysaran]

I don't think any large changes should be done to am/sham until their Mechanic has been worked on. Until the players(and thereby testers) have a "final" product to dance with, any change will simply be QoL and risk making any mechanic overhaul that much more complicated.

Also, I lol"d at a proposal put forth by someone A, claiming Sham/AM are the only healers to not have a grp cleanse, and B doesn't understand why divine fury is in the game or how much rebalancing of ability damage would need to be completed to effect it's removal from the game... Basic things.

I think you really hit the spot: AM/Shamy mechanic. How should change? Sjould it change?
As you said until the class mechanic rework any change would just be a QoL, but maybe the class mechanic is fine and the class just need a QoL change. Imho the community should really focus on understending how deep AM/Shamy problem is.
I think the question is: AM/Shamy does really need a class mechanic rework or it's just a matter of fine tuning some skills/tactic?

[NSKaneda]

I think the question is: AM/Shamy does really need a class mechanic rework or it's just a matter of fine tuning some skills/tactic?

10 GCDs to go from 5Gork to 5Mork vs 5GCDs to do the same before Aza's changes to AM/SHM mechanic.
This and blanket nerf on hybrid healing forces AM/SMH to be something they were never intended to be: pure heal/pure dps.

I'd love to have old insta-cast and reset to 0 back but given recent reworks I'm reluctant with my enthusiasm for "a closer look at class mechanic"

[offlinemodus]

1. New Class Mechanic, give shamies/am insta cast 5gork 5mork is clumy as hell
2. bring back the stacking for potions and selfbuffs(toughnes or int steal buff)
3. make dmg tactic core, minus heal can be defined thru skill tree
4. make crit tactic works for heal to, shamies/am need heal buff
5. give shamies/aman aoe heal dot
6. make the grp heal shorter caster time.


thanks to op for make this thread.

[MMXX43]

Even if you do all these supposed flat balances , dps sham will still be op due to speed. Am cant kite is defensive rather than offensive ( like all order cause ...you know ) m1 needs to be mirrored , movement speed if not removed , at least make it mirrored for elves ( lore friendly and balanced )

[PlagueMonk]

This seems to be primarily a Shammy issue, is AM really OP? Because AM can be taken down by many destro MDPS classes while Shammy fears nothing. Maybe AP drain on both sides needs to be looked at, but primarily the problem is Shaman survivability is so much higher than any other class in roaming its crazy and much higher than AM.

I am not sure what can be done, ideally you would have Run Away break on use like all other speed boosts in game, but as that has been in the game forever and is kind of part of the Goblin identity it is tricky. I guess it is still Run Away if it breaks on skill use, or maybe breaks on damage skill use if that is possible so you could still heal when kiting.

While I agree Shaman damage feels too high, especially for a hybrid clsss, I think the bigger issue is this (highlighted above). I mean I watched as 3 RR70+ toons beat on a Shammy "trying" to escape and you know what? He managed to get away (I wasn't quite close enough to assist, only watch the debacle). What other toon can do that?! As a WP if I'm caught by 3 Dest, there is zero chance I'm getting away and cannot heal enough on the run to out pace the damage.

I think that one of 3 things needs to happen; 1) Reduce the Shaman's ultra survivability to be more in line with everyone else 2) Nerf their damage/healing to balance out that survivability or 3) Give Order a healing class with similar survivability.

[Caduceus]

While I agree Shaman damage feels too high, especially for a hybrid clsss, I think the bigger issue is this (highlighted above). I mean I watched as 3 RR70+ toons beat on a Shammy "trying" to escape and you know what? He managed to get away (I wasn't quite close enough to assist, only watch the debacle). What other toon can do that?! As a WP if I'm caught by 3 Dest, there is zero chance I'm getting away and cannot heal enough on the run to out pace the damage.

I think that one of 3 things needs to happen; 1) Reduce the Shaman's ultra survivability to be more in line with everyone else 2) Nerf their damage/healing to balance out that survivability or 3) Give Order a healing class with similar survivability.

AM is survivable as hell, and I regularly see AMs bully groups of players. Both classes are broken in small-scale.

[VindicoAtrum]

This seems to be primarily a Shammy issue, is AM really OP? Because AM can be taken down by many destro MDPS classes while Shammy fears nothing. Maybe AP drain on both sides needs to be looked at, but primarily the problem is Shaman survivability is so much higher than any other class in roaming its crazy and much higher than AM.

I am not sure what can be done, ideally you would have Run Away break on use like all other speed boosts in game, but as that has been in the game forever and is kind of part of the Goblin identity it is tricky. I guess it is still Run Away if it breaks on skill use, or maybe breaks on damage skill use if that is possible so you could still heal when kiting.

While I agree Shaman damage feels too high, especially for a hybrid clsss, I think the bigger issue is this (highlighted above). I mean I watched as 3 RR70+ toons beat on a Shammy "trying" to escape and you know what? He managed to get away (I wasn't quite close enough to assist, only watch the debacle). What other toon can do that?! As a WP if I'm caught by 3 Dest, there is zero chance I'm getting away and cannot heal enough on the run to out pace the damage.

I think that one of 3 things needs to happen; 1) Reduce the Shaman's ultra survivability to be more in line with everyone else 2) Nerf their damage/healing to balance out that survivability or 3) Give Order a healing class with similar survivability.

Man my friends and I have been those three guys. Permanent AP drain on one threat, permanent single-target detaunt on another, aoe detaunt 50% uptime, 30% runspeed boost renders pounce/shadowstep useless... they are MACHINES at getting away. They're everywhere now, everyone is realising how good they are and now you can't go anywhere without drowning in shamans, i'm all "can't beat 'em join 'em" and levelling my own.

[Nekkma]

Personally, I’m of the opinion to not do any mechanic overhaul. Shaman/am has been a pair of fantastic classes to play for over a decade. Changing how they play just run the risk of making them worse. Both classes are great fun. Don’t fix what’s not broken. Smaller adjustments yes, rework no.