Archmage/Shaman

[Cimba]

You says that AM/Shaman are at the bottom of the barrel interms of organized setting. Any idea how to fix this without changing the class mechanics?

There are plenty of ideas around. Even this thread has a few. But you could also hop over here viewtopic.php?f=76&t=41879. There were a number of threads that basically discussed the same ideas over and over again. I dont really want to do it again.
What is lacking, in my opinion, are complete concepts. Take this thread for example. The opening post sets out with declaring that AM/SHA are too strong damage dealers and then proceeds to propose a number of changes to heal abilities. How does that fit together? What is the goal? What are these changes supposed to accomplish?

I would much rather discuss something along the lines of: I want to see SHA/AM as go to healer in 6on6/city/RvR/whatever fights. Currently they are subpar because of X, Y & Z compared to G, H, F. Therefore I propose the changes A, B & C etc. Maybe a few of the more experienced players could get together and write something like this. Than again, who knows if the power that be are even interested in something like that.

[noobwarrior]

Hi.most of them already know me
you're talking here about op. while you forget that you have to sacrifice much
to play 100% DPS. of course you also need equip .. but the most important thing is skill + rotation. and if you don't have both then it's easy to say yes .. an evil shaman killed me .. nerf this class in relation to me. Play without sticky feetz,ran away tactic and minus 40% self heal..
in short, Glass cannone.

RoR.builders - Shaman

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;0;4;0;0

[Caduceus]

That is a **** comp more or less a guaranteed loose vs anything semi decent

You Dragonfang?

It worked for us. Maybe it is a meme, and maybe it is countered by certain setups. This was a while back, before shield DoKs were a thing I think. At the very least it was viable.

My point is that, by my own experience, AM is a strong class (not necessarily OP) in even highly organized "small-scale" (I'd put ranked 6v6 in a different category, but that's besides the point).

Earlier the suggestion was made that AM cannot hang in situations with healers and tanks. I think this is false, and my own experiences playing as, with and against AM confirm this.

[NSKaneda]

Transfer Force is a 24 seconds dot. You yourself set the premise thats in group play and enemies and allies know what to do (please not another strawman strike here ). Bleed fer me is the same spell. If you are nit-picking you can actually say that the shaman version is slightly superior (I let you find out why).
The thing is, in a small scale setting the healers will cleanse whenever possible. And as you might know, chillwind has a nice second effect and no cooldown, transfer force has.

None of this is any justification for why AM/Shaman should have such a powerful DoT.

This is a dot that you set your timestamps to. Besides it's a dot, one DoK/WP in a party and it's gone.

[Caduceus]

This is a dot that you set your timestamps to. Besides it's a dot, one DoK/WP in a party and it's gone.

And DoTs can be protected.

My point is not that there exists no counter-play, my point is that AM/Shaman get a DoT which is ludacrisly powerful compared to other DoTs.

Need I repeat that a single Transfer Force produces more damage/healing than all Sorc DoTs combined? Including one that is a 13pt skill in the career tree.

Another example perhaps?

Base damage of Transfer Force is 1k, with 150% of damage becoming healing, that produces a 2.5k damage delta for the cost of one GCD.
Base damage of Broadhead Arrow is 660, meaning that even when Broadhead Arrow is stacked 3x, it still doesn't scratch Transfer Force in terms of effectiveness.

If you can produce a comparison that makes Transfer Force seem more balanced, lets hear it. I cannot find it.

[Ysaran]

You says that AM/Shaman are at the bottom of the barrel interms of organized setting. Any idea how to fix this without changing the class mechanics?

There are plenty of ideas around. Even this thread has a few. But you could also hop over here viewtopic.php?f=76&t=41879. There were a number of threads that basically discussed the same ideas over and over again. I dont really want to do it again.
What is lacking, in my opinion, are complete concepts. Take this thread for example. The opening post sets out with declaring that AM/SHA are too strong damage dealers and then proceeds to propose a number of changes to heal abilities. How does that fit together? What is the goal? What are these changes supposed to accomplish?

I would much rather discuss something along the lines of: I want to see SHA/AM as go to healer in 6on6/city/RvR/whatever fights. Currently they are subpar because of X, Y & Z compared to G, H, F. Therefore I propose the changes A, B & C etc. Maybe a few of the more experienced players could get together and write something like this. Than again, who knows if the power that be are even interested in something like that.

I get your point and I agree. For what concerne the Devs, as far as I know they are interested in changing the class mechanics. Both Wargrimnir and Secrets said something about it, but atm it seems more a general sentiment rather than something they are really working on. Imho it's not necessary to change the class mechanics, maybe if some experienced AM/Shaman write down a proposal or something they would change their mind. Considering that the time needed for a class mechanic rework is much longer than some tweak, they may even appriciate it.

[Sulorie]

Another example perhaps?

Base damage of Transfer Force is 1k, with 150% of damage becoming healing, that produces a 2.5k damage delta for the cost of one GCD.
Base damage of Broadhead Arrow is 660, meaning that even when Broadhead Arrow is stacked 3x, it still doesn't scratch Transfer Force in terms of effectiveness.

If you can produce a comparison that makes Transfer Force seem more balanced, lets hear it. I cannot find it.

You just compared a triple stack Broadhead Arrow with Transfer Force based on the career builder damage scores, right?

How many chances a healer has to cleanse it during 24 seconds?
How you think is the dmg pressure of a full triple stack BA vs Transfer Force?

Do you really want to play theory-craft warrior here?

[Nekkma]

In what world is a super long dot "ludacrisly powerful" outside of a 1vs1 scenario? Burst damage kills in a game with guard and healing. Trash dots with low dps do not.

[Caduceus]

In what world is a super long dot "ludacrisly powerful" outside of a 1vs1 scenario? Burst damage kills in a game with guard and healing. Trash dots with low dps do not.

Ok, fantastic. So we can take it out, since nobody will be missing it.

Or shall we perhaps update all other classes' DoTs to be on par, since we'd only be giving them a 'trash DoT' anyway?

[Nekkma]

Why would you take it out? The dot is perfectly fine. Not particularly strong at all outside 1vs1, relative other dots.